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	<title>Comments on: Recently I wrote there was a historical mistrust&#8230;recent raises don&#8217;t help&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/</link>
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		<title>By: dalepertcheck</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352700</link>
		<dc:creator>dalepertcheck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352700</guid>
		<description>Lisa,
I have to disagree with you on the issue of artificial term limits.  Nothing involving human beings is perfect, but incumbency does NOT ensure re-election.

I already used the example of the last two Toledo mayors being held to one term each, against their wishes.  But I can go back to 1970 when a relatively unknown John Gilligan defeated a very popular U.S. Senator, Frank Lausche, in a statewide Democratic Primary election!  Gilligan lost the General Election that year to Robert Taft, Jr.  Then, 6 years later, the very liberal Howard Metzenbaum defeated incumbent Robert Taft, Jr. in the 1976 General Election.  Defeating the son of Mr. Republican, Robert Taft, Sr., and the grandson of onetime President and Chief Justice of the United States, William Howard Taft, in a conservative state like Ohio was no small feat.  Or how about in 1982 when the long-time incumbent Member of Congress, Thomas Ludlow &quot;Lud&quot; Ashley, was defeated right here by an almost totally unknown Ed Webber?  No one thought that Ashley could ever lose!

But, you miss (purposely ignore?) my more important point:  do you really want even more stringent term limits that will further shift governmental power from elected officials to bureaucrats?  It seems as though those who favor term limits feel that these limits give the citizens more control over government.  I submit that the exact opposite is true.  The power will be there, one way or the other.  Artificial term limits places that power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats and lobbyists for special interests, as these limits take power away from elected officials.  Elected officials go, bureaucrats and lobbyists stay!

Despite the political &quot;musical chairs&quot;, there are far less people with experience in the Ohio General Assembly now than there were before artificial term limits were put into place.  Look it up!  Far fewer elected officials have a grasp on how the legislature works now than was true before artificial term limits.  Just when they&#039;re starting to really understand the system, they&#039;re out of office...not because they are incompetent, not because they abuse their power, but because their time is up!  

More than anything else, artificial term limits, limit the voters&#039; ability to keep in office elected officials who know how to do their jobs and do them well!  Were there ever abuses?  Of course!  We&#039;re talking about human beings here.  But the system worked far better than does the current system. Those who fought to get artificial term limits just don&#039;t want to admit that the cure is worse than the disease!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa,<br />
I have to disagree with you on the issue of artificial term limits.  Nothing involving human beings is perfect, but incumbency does NOT ensure re-election.</p>
<p>I already used the example of the last two Toledo mayors being held to one term each, against their wishes.  But I can go back to 1970 when a relatively unknown John Gilligan defeated a very popular U.S. Senator, Frank Lausche, in a statewide Democratic Primary election!  Gilligan lost the General Election that year to Robert Taft, Jr.  Then, 6 years later, the very liberal Howard Metzenbaum defeated incumbent Robert Taft, Jr. in the 1976 General Election.  Defeating the son of Mr. Republican, Robert Taft, Sr., and the grandson of onetime President and Chief Justice of the United States, William Howard Taft, in a conservative state like Ohio was no small feat.  Or how about in 1982 when the long-time incumbent Member of Congress, Thomas Ludlow &#8220;Lud&#8221; Ashley, was defeated right here by an almost totally unknown Ed Webber?  No one thought that Ashley could ever lose!</p>
<p>But, you miss (purposely ignore?) my more important point:  do you really want even more stringent term limits that will further shift governmental power from elected officials to bureaucrats?  It seems as though those who favor term limits feel that these limits give the citizens more control over government.  I submit that the exact opposite is true.  The power will be there, one way or the other.  Artificial term limits places that power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats and lobbyists for special interests, as these limits take power away from elected officials.  Elected officials go, bureaucrats and lobbyists stay!</p>
<p>Despite the political &#8220;musical chairs&#8221;, there are far less people with experience in the Ohio General Assembly now than there were before artificial term limits were put into place.  Look it up!  Far fewer elected officials have a grasp on how the legislature works now than was true before artificial term limits.  Just when they&#8217;re starting to really understand the system, they&#8217;re out of office&#8230;not because they are incompetent, not because they abuse their power, but because their time is up!  </p>
<p>More than anything else, artificial term limits, limit the voters&#8217; ability to keep in office elected officials who know how to do their jobs and do them well!  Were there ever abuses?  Of course!  We&#8217;re talking about human beings here.  But the system worked far better than does the current system. Those who fought to get artificial term limits just don&#8217;t want to admit that the cure is worse than the disease!</p>
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		<title>By: LisaRenee</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352699</link>
		<dc:creator>LisaRenee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352699</guid>
		<description>Windman, when you have union employees who don&#039;t want to go into administration because they&#039;d have to take a pay cut, it is a problem.  The city does have a good benefit package and retirement, but considering some of the salary ranges and benefit packages for higher level executive positions in Toledo, that also appears low.  Now, if you are comparing what are considered more &quot;regular&quot; positions, union and non-union alike are better off than many in the private sector though the non-union city workers in lower level administrative type positions have not gotten the same level of pay raises the union membership has.  

This does not mean now is the time to address that though, it is however something that should be pointed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Windman, when you have union employees who don&#8217;t want to go into administration because they&#8217;d have to take a pay cut, it is a problem.  The city does have a good benefit package and retirement, but considering some of the salary ranges and benefit packages for higher level executive positions in Toledo, that also appears low.  Now, if you are comparing what are considered more &#8220;regular&#8221; positions, union and non-union alike are better off than many in the private sector though the non-union city workers in lower level administrative type positions have not gotten the same level of pay raises the union membership has.  </p>
<p>This does not mean now is the time to address that though, it is however something that should be pointed out.</p>
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		<title>By: justsomeguy</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352697</link>
		<dc:creator>justsomeguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352697</guid>
		<description>Wind Man,

I think we&#039;re all in agreement that the lack of checks and balances locally have created a distorted system for compensation.  Certainly the &quot;perks&quot; are a major factor in that.  If the &quot;perks&quot; were more in line with what the private sector would deem fair or reality, then I don&#039;t think that there would be many complaining about the wages being paid or the increases received for a more responsible position.  As just one example, David Welch is the Director of Public Service.  I suspect he probably has in the range of 400 or more employees working under his direction and oversees a number of disparate divisional operations.  $80,000 is not a lot of money for someone who oversees an operation of that scope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wind Man,</p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re all in agreement that the lack of checks and balances locally have created a distorted system for compensation.  Certainly the &#8220;perks&#8221; are a major factor in that.  If the &#8220;perks&#8221; were more in line with what the private sector would deem fair or reality, then I don&#8217;t think that there would be many complaining about the wages being paid or the increases received for a more responsible position.  As just one example, David Welch is the Director of Public Service.  I suspect he probably has in the range of 400 or more employees working under his direction and oversees a number of disparate divisional operations.  $80,000 is not a lot of money for someone who oversees an operation of that scope.</p>
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		<title>By: Wind Man</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352694</link>
		<dc:creator>Wind Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352694</guid>
		<description>But how about the benefit package they receive? Anyone in the private sector would love to have those benefits.... I think that makes up for the wage difference, and in reality it is not much different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But how about the benefit package they receive? Anyone in the private sector would love to have those benefits&#8230;. I think that makes up for the wage difference, and in reality it is not much different.</p>
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		<title>By: justsomeguy</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352693</link>
		<dc:creator>justsomeguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352693</guid>
		<description>Wind Man,

If you are referring to me as being the supporter of Mr. Bell, you have assumed wrongly.  I supported neither Mr. Bell nor Mr. Wilkowski and didn&#039;t then nor still don&#039;t see either of those men as a solution to the problems that plague Toledo from its years and years of domination by one line of thinking largely stemming from one political party.  Both Mr. Bell and Mr. Wilkowski are too much a product of the system to have any measurable degree of sucess as changing that system.  If you really believe the citizens of Toledo would have seen a different approach under a Wilkowski regime, you are afflicted with a similar lack of reality.  Do you remember who Wilkowski supported for President (local campaign chair if I&#039;m not mistaken)?  Seen any results about reducing the size of government and its programs from that candidate&#039;s ongoing approach now that we&#039;ve experienced it during its first year?  As long as Toledo keeps in-breeding the results will stay the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wind Man,</p>
<p>If you are referring to me as being the supporter of Mr. Bell, you have assumed wrongly.  I supported neither Mr. Bell nor Mr. Wilkowski and didn&#8217;t then nor still don&#8217;t see either of those men as a solution to the problems that plague Toledo from its years and years of domination by one line of thinking largely stemming from one political party.  Both Mr. Bell and Mr. Wilkowski are too much a product of the system to have any measurable degree of sucess as changing that system.  If you really believe the citizens of Toledo would have seen a different approach under a Wilkowski regime, you are afflicted with a similar lack of reality.  Do you remember who Wilkowski supported for President (local campaign chair if I&#8217;m not mistaken)?  Seen any results about reducing the size of government and its programs from that candidate&#8217;s ongoing approach now that we&#8217;ve experienced it during its first year?  As long as Toledo keeps in-breeding the results will stay the same.</p>
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		<title>By: LisaRenee</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352692</link>
		<dc:creator>LisaRenee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352692</guid>
		<description>Santiago makes less because she took a lessor position, so I don&#039;t see that as a huge issue to point out, had her salary stayed the same that would have been an issue.  

Most of the administrative staff makes less than they would in the private sector, some of them make less than the hourly union workers, that is a problem in attracting and keeping high quality staff.  It&#039;s been like that for several years, but given the current economic climate, now does not seem like the time to address that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Santiago makes less because she took a lessor position, so I don&#8217;t see that as a huge issue to point out, had her salary stayed the same that would have been an issue.  </p>
<p>Most of the administrative staff makes less than they would in the private sector, some of them make less than the hourly union workers, that is a problem in attracting and keeping high quality staff.  It&#8217;s been like that for several years, but given the current economic climate, now does not seem like the time to address that.</p>
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		<title>By: Wind Man</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352691</link>
		<dc:creator>Wind Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352691</guid>
		<description>One can see through your reality, your a supporter of Mr. Bell, someone who has no experience politically. He ran an empty campaign, he has no experience in the private sector, and just like our president he thinks that everyone in government should be &quot;paid&quot;. Tell me where Mr. Bell has collected his pay check for the last 30 years ? He has no intentions of fixing the budget mess, just wants to have meetings and get other peoples ideas, so he can brandish them as his own. Tell one thing he has planned to help Toledo grow. Oh I know one, CHANGE THE SIGNS... brilliant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One can see through your reality, your a supporter of Mr. Bell, someone who has no experience politically. He ran an empty campaign, he has no experience in the private sector, and just like our president he thinks that everyone in government should be &#8220;paid&#8221;. Tell me where Mr. Bell has collected his pay check for the last 30 years ? He has no intentions of fixing the budget mess, just wants to have meetings and get other peoples ideas, so he can brandish them as his own. Tell one thing he has planned to help Toledo grow. Oh I know one, CHANGE THE SIGNS&#8230; brilliant.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352689</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352689</guid>
		<description>JustSomeGuy,
From what I saw, no one went from &#039;fry cook&#039; level to &#039;Store Manager&#039; level. People go from supervisor to manager all the time like this.

I can tell you right now that there are many people working and doing jobs above thier title or filling titles without compensation. Unlike government though, these people will not get the money until there is money to be got. They get promises and assurances and if they don&#039;t like it, they are always free to go elsewhere (I hear there is a lot of opportunity and jobs now)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JustSomeGuy,<br />
From what I saw, no one went from &#8216;fry cook&#8217; level to &#8216;Store Manager&#8217; level. People go from supervisor to manager all the time like this.</p>
<p>I can tell you right now that there are many people working and doing jobs above thier title or filling titles without compensation. Unlike government though, these people will not get the money until there is money to be got. They get promises and assurances and if they don&#8217;t like it, they are always free to go elsewhere (I hear there is a lot of opportunity and jobs now)</p>
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		<title>By: justsomeguy</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352687</link>
		<dc:creator>justsomeguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352687</guid>
		<description>and the denial of reality continues...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and the denial of reality continues&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Wind Man</title>
		<link>http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2010/02/recently-i-wrote-there-was-a-historical-mistrust-recent-raises-dont-help/#comment-352686</link>
		<dc:creator>Wind Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=11641#comment-352686</guid>
		<description>And the justification responses begin.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the justification responses begin&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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