Comments on: Dan Burns former business manager Toledo Public Schools indicted http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/ Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:25:57 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Mike http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347594 Mike Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:19:00 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347594 There is no community advocate I know (and I know many), that is as unbiased, tolerant, balanced, virtuous, noble, ethical and without prejudice as LisaRenee Ward. She is the beacon of hope in "Pottersville" and I for one am astonished that any one would question her virtue or character on any level after reading her posts or views on any and all subject matter written here or elsewhere. Anyone that has questioned her character should be ashamed. There is no community advocate I know (and I know many), that is as unbiased, tolerant, balanced, virtuous, noble, ethical and without prejudice as LisaRenee Ward. She is the beacon of hope in “Pottersville” and I for one am astonished that any one would question her virtue or character on any level after reading her posts or views on any and all subject matter written here or elsewhere.

Anyone that has questioned her character should be ashamed.

]]> By: LisaRenee http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347588 LisaRenee Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:38:40 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347588 I agree, it would take strong leadership and it's also going to have to be someone who is very charismatic, because that is what this area seems to respond to with the hope they will not be fake... Yet in the absence of this almost miracle person that we would need to find, being found, it is up to us. Those who are only interested in creating drama and vendetta mentality need to be overpowered by those who want solutions that will involve compromise. For that to happen, the community has to care. At times watching what is the main focus of our community, I wonder if that's possible but? I still have hope... I agree, it would take strong leadership and it’s also going to have to be someone who is very charismatic, because that is what this area seems to respond to with the hope they will not be fake…

Yet in the absence of this almost miracle person that we would need to find, being found, it is up to us. Those who are only interested in creating drama and vendetta mentality need to be overpowered by those who want solutions that will involve compromise. For that to happen, the community has to care. At times watching what is the main focus of our community, I wonder if that’s possible but? I still have hope…

]]> By: wwjbd http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347584 wwjbd Sun, 06 Dec 2009 12:52:29 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347584 Lisa When you posted the following I believe that you were right on point. "The largest reason for failure in my opinion is directly related to the public both for the school system and for our whole government, local, state and federal. Eventually ignorance of the issues becomes a non-acceptable excuse, either we want our children to succeed and our community to succeed and we are willing to take personal responsibility for that, or we can continue to expect others to, then not be happy with the way it turns out. Yet, working together on common issues seems to be harder here than in other communities, in part because we seem to hold on to past slights, grudges and vendettas." I am very concerned with exactly what you have pointed out above. "We have met the enemy and he is us!" (Pogo) I also believe you are correct when you point out that there are a great many people within the school system who should not be lumped into the current scandal. I do however believe that a fundamental change needs to occur for the entire system to move forward, possibly in an entirely different manner. IMHO running a school system is not rocket science, doing it efficiently however would require an involved, informed community that was willing to let go of turf and intelligently examine the real issues. But, that would require very strong leadership. Lisa
When you posted the following I believe that you were right on point.
“The largest reason for failure in my opinion is directly related to the public both for the school system and for our whole government, local, state and federal. Eventually ignorance of the issues becomes a non-acceptable excuse, either we want our children to succeed and our community to succeed and we are willing to take personal responsibility for that, or we can continue to expect others to, then not be happy with the way it turns out. Yet, working together on common issues seems to be harder here than in other communities, in part because we seem to hold on to past slights, grudges and vendettas.”
I am very concerned with exactly what you have pointed out above. “We have met the enemy and he is us!” (Pogo)
I also believe you are correct when you point out that there are a great many people within the school system who should not be lumped into the current scandal. I do however believe that a fundamental change needs to occur for the entire system to move forward, possibly in an entirely different manner. IMHO running a school system is not rocket science, doing it efficiently however would require an involved, informed community that was willing to let go of turf and intelligently examine the real issues. But, that would require very strong leadership.

]]> By: wwforlife http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347574 wwforlife Sun, 06 Dec 2009 01:19:46 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347574 Lisa says: #25 "I understand why you may not want to broach how I am being treated, but it is the elephant in the room, for me and others." I would broach it if I knew how you are being treated and what I could do about it. I can not tell from the blogs and that is my only source of contact with you and issues that you blog about. But if you ever needed a senior for an alley fight with an 800 lb. elephant on your behalf__ I'm your man. You have my email. Lisa says:

#25 “I understand why you may not want to broach how I am being treated, but it is the elephant in the room, for me and others.”

I would broach it if I knew how you are being treated and what I could do about it. I can not tell from the blogs and that is my only source of contact with you and issues that you blog about. But if you ever needed a senior for an alley fight with an 800 lb. elephant on your behalf__ I’m your man. You have my email.

]]> By: LisaRenee http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347571 LisaRenee Sun, 06 Dec 2009 00:11:17 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347571 You wrote, "Sorry, I don’t know where this “example” applies to anything on this post. I will pass if examples of racism are inserted instead of the realities." It is a reality, it's happening and it's happened to others and it impacts on the way people treat each other. My response did not mean that I think you need to defend how you feel about the blog, or me, just that I think the accusations being made directed at others and including myself, since I've actually experienced this to know of what I am writing about, is part of the larger problem. I understand why you may not want to broach how I am being treated, but it is the elephant in the room, for me and others. You wrote, “Sorry, I don’t know where this “example” applies to anything on this post. I will pass if examples of racism are inserted instead of the realities.”

It is a reality, it’s happening and it’s happened to others and it impacts on the way people treat each other.

My response did not mean that I think you need to defend how you feel about the blog, or me, just that I think the accusations being made directed at others and including myself, since I’ve actually experienced this to know of what I am writing about, is part of the larger problem.

I understand why you may not want to broach how I am being treated, but it is the elephant in the room, for me and others.

]]> By: wwforlife http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347570 wwforlife Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:51:21 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347570 LisaRenee Says: "I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race," ??????????? Lisa says: #10 “Yet, working together on common issues seems to be harder here than in other communities, in part because we seem to hold on to past slights, grudges and vendettas. “ ww You went from slights, holding grudges and vendettas to: LisaRenee Says: #23 “I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race,” ww I did not know that we were discussing “the reality of race” on this post. I missed the switch somewhere.But realizing that "the RACE WAS ON" You then went to: Lisa says: # 17 “we are supposed to believe if we are white it’s the blacks who are the problem, if we are black we are supposed to believe it’s the whites who are the problem.” ww In trying to find out what page you were on with the race issue I offered this to show that I had voted the person and not the race and that I had problems with the TPS board when it was dominated by minorities. ww for life #19 Many of us blamed the school board when it had a Black superintendent: a black TPS president and a majority minority TPS school board. We blamed the TPS oversight committee that was hand picked back then that had a large degree of minorities. I have championed and mourned the loss of a White woman TPS member and I had supported her campaign to the best of my ability against the wishes of many in my community. So I don’t really need this type of lecture on those who only support people of their own color! If you can cite anyone that did not vote merely for color, I should be one of your best examples of voting on who I thought was best__ regardless of color. For city council I voted for Martinez and McNamara. That’s a vote for Black, White and Brown. Those are the only colors that ran. So my record speaks for itself. I voted the person not the color. So I hope that I will not continue to be included in the following group. And for some unknown reason you came back with this and a hypothetical: Lisa says: #21 “It’s fairly clear many whites in this City will vote for a non-white candidate, it’s also clear that in the Central City, race appears to play a higher factor in the decision to vote but non-black candidates will receive votes and can win in those wards.” And “Let’s use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim.” ww Still befuddled by any awareness that I was even in a discussion about race, I came back with this: wwfor life # 22 I have never ever implied that you supported anyone because of their race. In fact I have on many occasions supported you on this blog and in the streets, as race __ up until now__, was never a factor in who you or I supported and the reasons why we supported them! You would have to show me where I ever said that you supported anyone based on race. I believed that I was showing that I did not buy into a one race or the other point of view by my voting and candidate support record, but it seemed to get me more indicted into “what I have bought into! An when I said that “I will leave this issue for now, as I am more puzzled than when it started.” You came back with this: LisaRenee Says: #23 I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race,” ww You have done a tremendous job as a blogger for the 6 years you said that you have been doing one and I have told you this on several ocassions….but I have been discussing race for a great many more years than that and will never pass on the realities of discussing it___ if I know that was what we are discussing. LisaRenee Says:

“I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race,” ???????????

Lisa says: #10

“Yet, working together on common issues seems to be harder here than in other communities, in part because we seem to hold on to past slights, grudges and vendettas. “

ww You went from slights, holding grudges and vendettas to:

LisaRenee Says: #23
“I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race,”

ww I did not know that we were discussing “the reality of race” on this post. I missed the switch somewhere.But realizing that “the RACE WAS ON” You then went to:

Lisa says: # 17
“we are supposed to believe if we are white it’s the blacks who are the problem, if we are black we are supposed to believe it’s the whites who are the problem.”

ww In trying to find out what page you were on with the race issue I offered this to show that I had voted the person and not the race and that I had problems with the TPS board when it was dominated by minorities.

ww for life #19
Many of us blamed the school board when it had a Black superintendent: a black TPS president and a majority minority TPS school board. We blamed the TPS oversight committee that was hand picked back then that had a large degree of minorities. I have championed and mourned the loss of a White woman TPS member and I had supported her campaign to the best of my ability against the wishes of many in my community. So I don’t really need this type of lecture on those who only support people of their own color! If you can cite anyone that did not vote merely for color, I should be one of your best examples of voting on who I thought was best__ regardless of color. For city council I voted for Martinez and McNamara. That’s a vote for Black, White and Brown. Those are the only colors that ran. So my record speaks for itself. I voted the person not the color. So I hope that I will not continue to be included in the following group.

And for some unknown reason you came back with this and a hypothetical:

Lisa says: #21
“It’s fairly clear many whites in this City will vote for a non-white candidate, it’s also clear that in the Central City, race appears to play a higher factor in the decision to vote but non-black candidates will receive votes and can win in those wards.”
And “Let’s use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim.”

ww Still befuddled by any awareness that I was even in a discussion about race, I came back with this:

wwfor life # 22
I have never ever implied that you supported anyone because of their race. In fact I have on many occasions supported you on this blog and in the streets, as race __ up until now__, was never a factor in who you or I supported and the reasons why we supported them! You would have to show me where I ever said that you supported anyone based on race. I believed that I was showing that I did not buy into a one race or the other point of view by my voting and candidate support record, but it seemed to get me more indicted into “what I have bought into! An when I said that “I will leave this issue for now, as I am more puzzled than when it started.”

You came back with this:
LisaRenee Says: #23
I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race,”

ww You have done a tremendous job as a blogger for the 6 years you said that you have been doing one and I have told you this on several ocassions….but I have been discussing race for a great many more years than that and will never pass on the realities of discussing it___ if I know that was what we are discussing.

]]> By: LisaRenee http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347566 LisaRenee Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:26:49 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347566 I'm sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race, because I was willing to use myself as an example, and it's not been done to just me. It was a real example of what is part of the problem. That's why it will continue, and you implied exactly the message portion in your previous post, while carefully worded to not name me directly, it's been a concern expressed before. I'm not protesting too much, I was trying to see if honesty was possible, since I've already been made a target, there's nothing to lose by no longer pretending. I created Glass City Jungle on 1/15/06 - in approaching the anniversary, the future will contain more as I think part of the goal of transparency has to be a willingness to broach topics that we've avoided. There is a difference between keeping personal confidentiality and others knowing more than what is being told. I’m sorry you decided to pass on the reality aspect of race, because I was willing to use myself as an example, and it’s not been done to just me. It was a real example of what is part of the problem.

That’s why it will continue, and you implied exactly the message portion in your previous post, while carefully worded to not name me directly, it’s been a concern expressed before.

I’m not protesting too much, I was trying to see if honesty was possible, since I’ve already been made a target, there’s nothing to lose by no longer pretending. I created Glass City Jungle on 1/15/06 – in approaching the anniversary, the future will contain more as I think part of the goal of transparency has to be a willingness to broach topics that we’ve avoided. There is a difference between keeping personal confidentiality and others knowing more than what is being told.

]]> By: wwforlife http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347560 wwforlife Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:25:25 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347560 Lisa says: 21 "Let’s use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim. Hence defense or agreement with another white person, well that’s expected, because “I’m one of them” — criticism of someone who is not white? Well, that’s expected too, because “I’m one of them” attempting to sell the same fear message." Sorry, I don't know where this "example" applies to anything on this post. I will pass if examples of racism are inserted instead of the realities. Lisa wrote: "Unfortunately you have bought in to part of that message, you believe since I have friends on the other side of this issue, that creates bias on my part and I would defend people based on that as opposed to how I really am." Now I know I will pass as I am not sure of what "I have bought into?" I have never ever implied that you support anyone because of their race. In fact I have on many occasions supported you on this blog and in the streets as race , up until now , was never a factor in who you or I supported and the reasons why we supported them! You would have to show me where I ever said that you supported anyone based on race. I believed that I was showing that I did not buy into a one race or the other point of view by my voting and candidate support record, but it seemed to get me more indicted into "what I have bought into! They say that when you are in a hole and want to get out, the best thing to do is to stop digging. It seems like the more I try to show by my actions, that I have not voted or taken a side based on race, the more I get "you have bought into this message” and examples of racist behavior" and implications that I have racist views. I will leave this issue for now, as I am more puzzled than when it started. Methinks Thou Dost Protest Too Much. Lisa says: 21

“Let’s use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim. Hence defense or agreement with another white person, well that’s expected, because “I’m one of them” — criticism of someone who is not white? Well, that’s expected too, because “I’m one of them” attempting to sell the same fear message.”

Sorry, I don’t know where this “example” applies to anything on this post. I will pass if examples of racism are inserted instead of the realities.

Lisa wrote: “Unfortunately you have bought in to part of that message, you believe since I have friends on the other side of this issue, that creates bias on my part and I would defend people based on that as opposed to how I really am.”

Now I know I will pass as I am not sure of what “I have bought into?” I have never ever implied that you support anyone because of their race. In fact I have on many occasions supported you on this blog and in the streets as race , up until now , was never a factor in who you or I supported and the reasons why we supported them! You would have to show me where I ever said that you supported anyone based on race. I believed that I was showing that I did not buy into a one race or the other point of view by my voting and candidate support record, but it seemed to get me more indicted into “what I have bought into! They say that when you are in a hole and want to get out, the best thing to do is to stop digging. It seems like the more I try to show by my actions, that I have not voted or taken a side based on race, the more I get “you have bought into this message” and examples of racist behavior” and implications that I have racist views. I will leave this issue for now, as I am more puzzled than when it started.

Methinks Thou Dost Protest Too Much.

]]> By: LisaRenee http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347556 LisaRenee Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:05:21 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347556 I'm not including or including people, I'm merely pointing out the reality of how the messaging is done and why because it is part of the problem and it's one we rarely talk about. I believed it was assumed not everyone operated under this... It's fairly clear many whites in this City will vote for a non-white candidate, it's also clear that in the Central City, race appears to play a higher factor in the decision to vote but non-black candidates will receive votes and can win in those wards. The cultural/societal messaging is what I was focusing on, we demonstrate we are able to challenge those messages when we vote, but we rarely discuss the reason for the mistrust. My personal belief is that we are supposed to fear and mistrust each other, the fear factor is how we are kept divided so that we don't join together to change things, and there are those in every group that consciously or subconsciously continue to use the fear factor. Let's use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim. Hence defense or agreement with another white person, well that's expected, because "I'm one of them" -- criticism of someone who is not white? Well, that's expected too, because "I'm one of them" attempting to sell the same fear message. Unfortunately you have bought in to part of that message, you believe since I have friends on the other side of this issue, that creates bias on my part and I would defend people based on that as opposed to how I really am. The mere fact that I see both sides, creates problems, because I don't fit into that "mold" of where I am supposed to be. I don't claim to be the only person capable of this, thankfully there are others. It is both the luxury and the curse of having friends on both sides of many issues, not just this one, the ability to see from the outside but the curse of then being forced to tell people on both sides things they may not want to hear. Yet those able to do this without losing their sanity can offer a unique perspective at times, if anyone cares to listen and is interested in honesty from that perspective. I’m not including or including people, I’m merely pointing out the reality of how the messaging is done and why because it is part of the problem and it’s one we rarely talk about.

I believed it was assumed not everyone operated under this…

It’s fairly clear many whites in this City will vote for a non-white candidate, it’s also clear that in the Central City, race appears to play a higher factor in the decision to vote but non-black candidates will receive votes and can win in those wards.

The cultural/societal messaging is what I was focusing on, we demonstrate we are able to challenge those messages when we vote, but we rarely discuss the reason for the mistrust. My personal belief is that we are supposed to fear and mistrust each other, the fear factor is how we are kept divided so that we don’t join together to change things, and there are those in every group that consciously or subconsciously continue to use the fear factor.

Let’s use me as an example, if you believe that I am a racist white woman who believes blacks should be subservient to me and this blog is designed only for white people, then you can discount anything I say that relates to any other race but my own. Anyone who defends me is also racist by proxy, creating me as the image of a victimizer and the accuser as the victim. Hence defense or agreement with another white person, well that’s expected, because “I’m one of them” — criticism of someone who is not white? Well, that’s expected too, because “I’m one of them” attempting to sell the same fear message.

Unfortunately you have bought in to part of that message, you believe since I have friends on the other side of this issue, that creates bias on my part and I would defend people based on that as opposed to how I really am. The mere fact that I see both sides, creates problems, because I don’t fit into that “mold” of where I am supposed to be. I don’t claim to be the only person capable of this, thankfully there are others.

It is both the luxury and the curse of having friends on both sides of many issues, not just this one, the ability to see from the outside but the curse of then being forced to tell people on both sides things they may not want to hear. Yet those able to do this without losing their sanity can offer a unique perspective at times, if anyone cares to listen and is interested in honesty from that perspective.

]]> By: wwforlife http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/2009/12/dan-burns-former-business-manager-toledo-public-schools-indicted/#comment-347555 wwforlife Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:43:40 +0000 http://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=10880#comment-347555 Missdeejay Says: LissaRenee,WWforlife, "Thank you both for helping me to understand our situation in TPS,Toledo, Unions and really just life. You both are one of many who have a grasp on our situation and you articulate it so well for an average person to “get it” {ME}" Missdeejay, I am also one of you "the average person" who is trying to understand. Missdeejay Says:

LissaRenee,WWforlife,

“Thank you both for helping me to understand our situation in TPS,Toledo, Unions and really just life. You both are one of many who have a grasp on our situation and you articulate it so well for an average person to “get it” {ME}”

Missdeejay, I am also one of you “the average person” who is trying to understand.

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