62 year old Central City woman shot and killed by police…
14 Dec 2009
I saw this story from WTOL on Facebook, details are sketchy but what’s being reported so far:
TOLEDO, OH (WTOL) – Toledo police shot and killed a 62-year-old woman in central Toledo Monday. It happened just after 8 p.m. in the 1300 block of Fernwood.
Police say when
The 62-year-old’s caregiver called police after she arrived at the woman’s home and found her acting erratically and brandishing a knife.
Police say when they arrived words were exchanged and they were threatened. Police fired shots and the woman was killed.
What? More police that were under the
influence of alcohol and/or drugs and
just want to shoot and kill first and as their only answer to it right away??
Where were there stun guns this time??
December 14th, 2009 at 11:49 pm“STUN guns” are not used. TASERs are the tools that we use for NON-lethal force when confronted with a violent person. When confronted with a deadly weapon (knife) we resort to defending ourselves with lethal force (handgun).
If the TASERs don’t work, then an officer or someone else could get seriously hurt or killed.
She, although mental, presented herself to the officer and the officer responsed according to years of training. No time to negotiate when an armed person is coming at you with a deadly weapon.
Now, could the officer have backed off and left? Not sure until we talk with the officer. But for know, that is what she gets for bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sounds cruel, but the officer was placed into the situation and had to respond.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:53 amwow DD, axe to grind?
allowing 4 or so “bad apples” to influence your opinion of the police force that’s left to patrol the city, and the drugs and alcohol are all you have concerning the officers on scene and not one of them the guilty party that got suspended.
granted, where was the Tazer® in this incident, but to blanket statement that the officers were messed up when they followed their training is irresponsible and says a lot about your ability to utilize logic and common sense, seeing you weren’t even there.
wow.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:58 amThis says a lot for T.P.D, shoot to kill a mentally ill person. She may have had a knife, but they could’nt talk her down to keep her from hurting herself, or someone else? Your right about Tazer, but that would of killed her to. They said she had a bad heart. Several rounds of gun fire? Only two people live there and T.P.D. can’t find some other method of restraint. This makes me sick. COMMON SENSE?? I think not!!!!!!!!
December 15th, 2009 at 7:28 amIt show that you have no knowledge, Brian, how people along with the police
treat mental health consumers.
It is Lucas County Mental Health System along with Police and Mental Health Professionals inadequate treatment and care of mental health consumers!
A 62 year old menally ill woman??
As in this Blogs recent article on
December 15th, 2009 at 7:30 amthe Toledo State Hospital Cemetery
Project Oh, that’s right, all you do is SPEAK UP and/or show dignity and respect once they are dead, Right??
By the way Brian, if just recently there were FOUR Police Officers found quilty of alcohol and drugs – HOW MANY MORE ARE THERE???
December 15th, 2009 at 7:35 amIt does seem a little odd, but since they haven’t released all the details, we can’t really make a call. All we know is that words were exchanged and she was shot.
I mean she could have charged them with the knife. Like Kat said, the Tazer probably would have killed her. She may have been shot what would normally be non-lethal, but because of her age and heart condition ended up being not so.
Of course the opposite could also be true since we don’t have the details.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:48 amJohn Meyer, read the article in the
Toledo Blade!!
If the Police are incapable of talking
December 15th, 2009 at 7:56 amdown or sub-doing a 62 year old woman
without shooting and killing her something is terribly wrong with the
Police training!!
Did I hear right on Police Officers only get 90 suspension? Is’nt the law, up to 6 months, fine and loss of liense, first offense? Get off with going to AA and report to probation,and drug/alchol test? What does that say to our younger generation? Yes they are human too, but if they have a problem, they have no business working with public. Any other person would be fired from their job, especially a driving job, and liensed to kill!!
December 15th, 2009 at 8:01 amToledo Blade Article that DD is talking about.
I assumed there wasn’t much known about this because both the WTOL and WTVG said the same thing and I generally don’t read the blade and assumed they would say the same thing.
I can see the officers point now of firing once since she lunged at them with what at that point was an unknown weapon since it was under a pillow. Of course unless those 4 shots came from 4 different guns fired at the same time or 4 seperate instances does make a huge difference.
Now why another officer didn’t try to taze her from a distance or something like that is another question to answer rather than trying to get close to taze her with the already malfunctioned one would be another question.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:07 amI realize people in in anger, have a lot of strenght, even 62 years old, but the Police have no training in Mental Health or they could of found some other way. This makes me so mad. It’s unexceptable behavior and police should be accountable for their actions!!!
December 15th, 2009 at 8:10 amCould we now be seeing the repurcussions of an understaffed and overworked police force? Alcohol, drugs, and hasty decisions? I don’t know but I think it deserves attention if it has any bearing.
I can tell you from personal experience that when you combine a highly stressful situation with being overworked, lack of sleep, and low morale you will have stuff like this happen. I was doing peacekeeping missions in Bosnia back in the 90’s. For a mission like that you had to have special UN peacekeeping training, if not you couldn’t go. Well while we were over there, we would lose soldiers due to normal unit rotations: change of duty station, schooling, injuries, etc. So while we were losing soldiers, thier replacements were still in the rear because they didn’t have the training to be there. After a few months, our guard shifts lengthened while our down time shortened due to a lack of soldiers. Normally good soldiers started to break down under the burden. Sleeping on guard, fighting, and medicine(Nyquil) for non medical use started to become more common.
We have to take care of our officers if we want them to take care of us. We can play the blame game all day but this all looks like a cry of help from our officers.
Am I defending the officers actions? No, my knee jerk reaction is that it seems excessive but it looks like it is under review by the firearms review board and I’ll wait to see what thier decision is.
December 15th, 2009 at 9:30 amDoug, it is untrained Police to deal with Mental Health Consumers along with
December 15th, 2009 at 10:08 amLucas County Mental Health’s system of
inadequate Mental Health treatment and
care for Mental Health Consumers!
You have to have been there. Years ago, in my position as a newsman, I went through the police training course here in Toledo. Part of that was a demonstration of just how quickly a person can cross a room, closing about 30 to 35 feet on you, and stabbing you before you can even get your gun out of your holster. It was eye opening and I believe the police officers here reacted properly when attacked. I also learned that officers are taught to fire “twice” at a threat as your accuracy, even close up, drops off dramatically under stress. Two officers, four shots, would fit with that training.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:09 amJohn Meyer, the 62 year old woman has
4 bullets in her.
Police always do an investigation of themselves after a shooting; however, most of the time they just say it was justifiable. Bologna, they always just protect themselves and other police officers with those decisions!
December 15th, 2009 at 10:14 amReads as if many of you just want and enjoy the old German and Russian approach!!
December 15th, 2009 at 10:20 amThere is a process in place if there is disagreement with a ruling by the firearms review board, the Attorney General’s office can be asked to look into it.
The larger question for me, considering this is not the first shooting that has involved a person who was known to have mental health issues is not the police force, it’s what is happening with our community mental health system where people that have known issues are not receiving help or in this case, are not taking medication. There has to be more that can be done on a local level to prevent these situations from happening in the first place.
We can’t expect as a community for police officers to allow themselves to be stabbed, they have the right to defend their lives. Should there be some type of a crisis mental health team called in for such scenarios instead of trying force? That’s something else that could be discussed.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:30 amQuestions;
How are situations like this handled in PRISONS,mental health facilities,and nursing homes etc.? I don’t think that they shoot them.
In years past, before the TASER, how were these situations handled, DID WE SHOOT THEM? [NOT VERY OFTEN]
Are the police so over worked and stressed out that they just don’t want the hassle of subduing a known mentally ill person?
Are they overweight and in danger of having a heart attack or stroke themselves if they have to physically restrain someone.[I know that I am overweight and can't imagine wrestling with some deranged person] I have seen some of the members of the Police force and a lot of them are overweight.
Is this what we can look forward to in the future from our Police Dept. Chief Navarre needs to get off of his [you know what] and address all of these SAFETY ISSUES.I HOPE THAT OUR NEWLY ELECTED MAYOR WILL LOOK INTO THIS MATTER.
Where was the other officer’s Taser gun, if the first officer’s taser wouldn’t work?
December 15th, 2009 at 10:32 amMissDeeJay, in prisons, mental health facilities and nursing homes, typically sharp objects such as knives or scissors are not available. People have been killed by prison guards for having a weapon. In a health facility typically what happens is the person is chemically sedated, police don’t have access to that. Though it’s an interesting concept to think about, if police were armed with human tranquilizer guns, less people would be killed.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:37 am@16
I’m sorry DD, does having respect for our Officers and giving them the benefit of the doubt before firing off accusations against thier character and decision making make me a Communist or Nazi? Especially when the review board hasn’t released it’s findings and decision? Does wanting to discuss what the underlying issues may be in this rash of uncharactaristic behavior recently make me Stalin or Hitler?
I take offense that my statements of concern in trying to understand the problem is met with accusations as such. It reduces the weight of your arguments and brings the discussion to nothing more than a yelling match.
I am simply pointing out that all of this seems to be coinciding with the fact that our Police are understaffed for a city of our size and their layoffs have been noted in the news but NO ONE discusses what this might be like for the cops who have to deal with it. It is easy to sit in our comfortable chairs and say how things should be and how we are outraged by the news snippet we have just read while sipping our coffee and blogging. These officers, however, have to deal with longer hours, more stress, an agitated public (unemployment, layoffs, foreclosures) and judging by other posts here, underappreciation. They are the guards of civil society but what happens when society stops being civil to them? It is self fulfilling prophecy and will continue unless we address the real issues.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:58 amRight on Lisa Renee!
And where will the Lucas County Mental Health and Recovery Board Executives along with Lucas County Mental Health Agencies and Organizations be when
December 15th, 2009 at 10:59 amasked for even a comment or will they ever make a statement regarding this or anything else about what happens??
THEY WILL JUST ALL SAY “No COMMENT” or
JUST IGNORE IT ALL!!
Doug, I believe you are raising valid points, if you take the staffing and morale issues on top of the larger problems in the community mental health system, that could very well be the underlying reason there have been several shootings that involved a person who had known mental health issues.
The solution is not within the power of the police department as far as prevention, which is what we as a community should focus on no matter the ruling from the fire arms review board. It was known in this case the woman who was shot and killed was not taking her medication. What options did her caregiver have considering in some cases, the lack of medication can increase violent behavior is a question that should be asked. Did she turn for help somewhere and it was not given?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:06 amIn prison inmates make their own deadly weapons.As far as Group Home,Two people living there and supposed to be under supervision at all times. Management should be responable for passing out medication, and on time! As for Keith, he must be a Police Officer.I realize in a bad situation you have to act quickly. I was’nt there, but still feel it could of been handled different. Yes there are a lot of overweight police, overworked and underpaid. Still I feel group home handled wrong and so did police. I doubt Old Mayor or new Mayor will make any difference at all!!!
December 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am@20
Didn’t anyone Yell & Scream when all the Jews were being killed??
Did anyone listen or try to do anything until the Toledo Blade and others regardin the killing of the
Lucas County Dogs and Dog Warden??
No one listens or wants to do anything unless MANY BEGIN TO YELL & SCREAM!!
December 15th, 2009 at 11:27 amIf people in group homes can’t be managed by staff, they need to call Rescue, or put in State Hospital where they get proper care and medication!!!
December 15th, 2009 at 11:39 amHitler was stopped, the whole Dog Warden thing was a fabricated scenario for anyone who looked at how many dogs are killed in other urban areas and by other “humane” organizations.
Yelling and Screaming only works if you go beyond that and ask for specific action and those who do yell and scream risk being ignored if they start calling people names. That’s not directed at you individually alone DD, but it is a reality that has happened with several scenarios. It allows people to discount what you are saying because they don’t take you seriously when you start comparing people to Nazis.
We touch on a lot of issues here that evoke passion and strong feeling, but if we can’t discuss things civilly, nothing will ever be accomplished beyond words on a page.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:42 amKat, that’s a valid question, I wondered why Rescue Crisis wasn’t called, and if they were called what the outcome was.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am@24
You are not even comparing apples to oranges, it’s like apples to llamas. I don’t think the jews were running at Germans with weapons by the millions… Or maybe you believe the Toledo Police are ritualistically killing mentally ill patients in death camps? Come on. An officer is being charged by a crazed person with a weapon.
I agree, we need to YELL & SCREAM but we should do it blindly in rage? We should attack what needs to be attacked. I believe the system is wrong, not the people, who according to my argument, may just be victims themselves. So you have a choice, you can keep saying cops are all bad and evil power hungry Nazis, or you can assess the larger picture and fix what is wrong.
@22
December 15th, 2009 at 11:45 amI agree Lisa, this situation goes beyond the police. The solution here will definately involve a look at the mental health industry of the Toledo area because it seems to me that quite a few of these incidents involved patients.
Toledo is not the only city in this country that is facing these problems.How many people have been killed with Tasers by the police this year? Is the alternative to Tasers just to shoot and wait until the review board says that they did nothing wrong.
The idea of calling in some one else to try and resolve the issue sounds like a good place to start. Since she was laying on the bed, could she have been isolated in the room until some one else came,I don”t know. I do know that this is a community issue, because it could be one of your relatives the next time.Then what.
In these days and times everyone is under stress financially and emotionally so I know that we will have more stories about these very issues because the Police are HUMAN too and I know that they get tired of dealing with all of the different issues that come up every day on the job, especially the lack of RESPECT.It has to be very frustrating.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:47 amAs a quick FYI – the word “Nazi” will temporarily place your post in moderation, which I approve as quickly as possible. Because of some of the past name calling between those who comment here, that was the easiest solution to moderate some of that before it reached the blog.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am@23
If I remember correctly from when my wife worked for one of those management companies, they are in the group home because they aren’t quite bad enough off to be hospitalized. In addition, if I remember correctly, the person has the right to stop taking their medication and it is just noted on the file. You can’t force the people in the group homes to take their medications.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:53 amJohn, you can refuse medication, that is true, but when a person becomes a danger to themselves or others, depending on the scenario there are actions that can be taken. What we don’t know yet is what the details are as far as this situation beyond knowing the basics.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pmUsually in the current scenes Mental Health consumers see their psychiatrits
December 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pmonce every 2 to 3 months for medication
management only for 15 or 20 minutes and other than that there is
very little or nothing at all for the
Mental Health Consumer whether in an apartment of their own or a group home.
People get in an uproar when it is broadcasted about a Mental Health Consumer doing a violent act towards another person and everyone yells and
screams for justice!!
Well, the Mental Health Consumers need
December 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pmadequate care, housing, and support for
help from others in Lucas County!
If living in a group home, you have to comply with certain rules and regulations. You may be court ordered to be there,or other reasons. Refusing to take meds I’am sure is a part of living there. If not, doctor should be notified right away. Then they can determine if you need to hospitalized till stable condition. Some people do not belong in a group home because of their severe condition. Yet the system don’t care. Then when something like this happens, people yell and scream. At the first sign of something off with person, prevenative help needed. This is the job of group home supervisors, and Mental Health,before police shoot people.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pmDD, I don’t think anyone, at least here, has blamed the actual person, what some of us have pointed out, that you agree with, is that it’s clear that there are concerns raised with the community mental health system when we have this scenario and the several others where there could have been other action taken that was not lethal, or even by the police…
Kat, I don’t disagree with you and I think those questions need to be asked as a part of the aftermath of this shooting.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pmIf people try quietly and try to bring up the Lucas County Mental Health Sytems
issues it is even more so DISCOUNTED by them and the public!
Lucas County Mental Health issues are briefly told in the news but then are not followed up on by the news and/or others and forgotten!
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pmI hope DD BOOTS does not need the assistance of the Toledo Police anytime soon. With his attitude, somebody might get hurt.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pmOnly if he charges them with a weapon but maybe by that time they will get proper training in the ‘Force’ and use thier Jedi training to restrain him.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pmI’m kind of curious if any of you have actually worked in this environment or known someone who has because the way you’re talking is idealized versus what actually happens in these places.
As far as staff goes you’re lucky if the people hired show up for the first day after they’ve been hired. If they show up for their first day you’re lucky if they’re still there 3 months from now.
Also, at what point does them going off their meds make them a threat, when they first go off their meds, when they start waving a pair of scissors, or somewhere in between.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pmI worked in the mental health industry for almost a decade John.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pmThe News media (TV and Newspaper) just
mainly for the past 10 years want to repeat the same old stores they have given time after time about Mental Health Services in Lucas county which mainly only cover Unision’s Genesis Program which has been around for years
and years, the Toledo State Hospital Cemetery Project which has been covered almost every year for lots of years now, Mentally ill consumers in jail, or the Safe Haven that was constructed just several years ago!
What about the day to day Mental Health
Consumer living alone in an apartment or a group home?? No one seems to care
one way or the other about them living in filfthy places and not receiving adequate care!
As long as the Mental Health System says the Mental Health Consumers have a roof over their heads no matter what the condition of the place or the enviroment may be and the landlords receive their rent from HUD’S Section 8 for most of them everyone could evidently care less!!
December 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm#38 & #39
Why ever call the Toledo Police??
Many times it takes 2-3 hours for them to show up and/or even if they finally get some places everything is all over with one way or the other!
December 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm@43
December 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pmWhich goes back to my original argument that they are understaffed. Besides, if everything was already over with, how do we have these examples of when things go badly?
Understaffed Balogna!
ManyToledo citizens can inform you Doug, they have phoned the Toledo Police
December 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pmon many occassions when arguments, fist
fights, drug dealing going on, etc. and
when the Toledo Police take 2-3 hours
to even get there it has broken up or
someone already hurt, etc. and the Police just say they do not see anything themselves so there is nothing
to write up!
Well, you said it was Balogna. Must be true. Silly me to expect you to maybe give me an example of how they are staffed appropriately? Oh the power of Balogna, rivals that of even cheese.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pmJohn,have you ever worked in that enviroment? We can argue till blue in face. Fact, police were wrong and group home. At what point when off meds are people a threat? depends on their diagnosis, their past history, how severe they are. There a lot of good case managers psych doctors that do care. If not seen on a regular basis their hands are tied. as far as staff,some care very much, but their superiors overrule them. Have seen this happen many times. The people that do care and show up for work are frustrated too. The bigwigs recieving a big pay check put their needs first at the expense of others.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pmEven when the Toledo Police had more Policemen on the force than ever before for at least the past 5-6 years
and still now many situations phoned into by many Toledo residents which Police did not show up where
it was taking place for 2-3 hours at certain locations in the City!
Drug dealing going on and phoned into Toledo Police. They show up 3 hours
December 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pmlater. So the Police expect to
see it happening themselves 3 hours later?? Of course not, those selling the drugs and those buying it are long
gone after 3 hours.
I’ve had to call the police from where I live, which is in District 3, for things such as hearing neighbors fight when it appeared someone was being harmed. I’ve never had to wait for an hour for the police to show up, in fact, the response has at times been within minutes. Only once did they arrive after a fight was over and it was because part of the group took off in a car that I was able to give them a description for.
Now if you are calling for something like a break in after the fact, with the felons having already left? It does take time for those calls and you are at times told to call in or go to the station to file a report.
They respond based on the nature of the call, and even once when one of my daughters was not missing long enough to file a missing person’s report, an officer showed within a very short time frame. And took the time to lecture the later found daughter…
When my neighbors have had break-ins they have not reported problems with the police, one time a few months ago the police actually caught someone in the act trying to rob a neighbor. So I can’t personally confirm a two to three hour wait time for a response for calls that are of an urgent nature, my experience has been the opposite.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pmDoug, one cannot just read the newspaper, listen to TV or Radio news,
read the internet, etc.
Go out into the real world and investigate yourself.
The Police, Mental Health System, etc.
know that it has been going on for years, and years, and years!!
Maybe if you go to the right locations and talk with other citizens there maybe you will learn about Bologna &
December 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pmCheese!
Kat, as I’ve said before, my wife worked as a manager for one of the private companies.
You want to argue till we’re blue in the face when you state opinions as facts?
Fact: Woman was off her meds on her own choice.
Fact: Woman started threating house caregiver and other person living there.
Fact: Police were called
Fact: Police confronted woman off meds.
Fact: Woman was hiding weapon under pillow
Fact: Officer tried to tazer her from distance but it malfunctioned
Fact: Officer tried to tazer her close range.
Fact: Woman lunged at officer
Fact: Woman was shot by police
Fact: Woman died
Until they do the investigation we won’t know if the police did anything wrong. By what we know I would have to say the only possibility would be not trying another distance tazer if available.
Was the person in charge of that group home wrong? Don’t know their companies policies, probably another investigation.
Was it safe for her to be off her meds? 20-20 hindsight says no, but most likely was at the time for them not to do anything about it before she went attacking.
Some people do care very much. A lot of people look at it as just another job. Part of the reason my wife left was she cared too much and couldn’t just look at it as a job.
And you say the bigwigs are making the money, but I’m pretty sure when my wife was there they were in the red due to cuts from government in funding, which as most people know you can have price, time, or quality, at the most 2, one will suffer.
DD:
I would definitely say the Toledo has more police per capita than ever before since wasn’t one of the reasons that Carty got reelected 4 years ago was because he was going to increase the police and fire forces because they were at or below minimum, but he never actually did it.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:58 pmDD,
December 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pmIs that your argument? Disregard multiple sources of relative material and just go out and ask any person on the street. Then if they don’t give the answer your arguing I must be in the wrong place so I should just keep looking for ones that agree with your point of view? Am I understanding that? I have no argument to this, there is no rational thought here.
Miswrote… should be:
I would definitely say the Toledo does not have more police per capita than ever before since wasn’t one of the reasons that Carty got reelected 4 years ago was because he was going to increase the police and fire forces because they were at or below minimum, but he never actually did it.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pmJohn,
December 15th, 2009 at 3:39 pmYou have to go out and ask people if they think there are more cops now than there used to be. That is the reliable number, not what the internet says, police reports, news media, radio news, only the perception of man.
Doug,
December 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pmI’ve seen the error of my ways. I will go to the streets and ask people if there are more cops out there. If they are safe. This is my mission. I will go.
“multiple Sources of Material”??
If the Toledo Police do show up some where if nothing is going on at the moment they finally get to the location
tHEY DO NOT WRITE UP A REPORT, ONLY THAT THEY WERE THERE AND SAW NOTHING WITH THEIR OWN EYES” THEY GET THERE TOO LATE TO SEE IT THEMSELVES SO THERE IS NOTHING WRITEN UP IN MULTIPLE SOURCES!!
If the one calling it in actually states and says the words “I WANT TO MAKE AN OFFICIAL COMPLAINT” then the
Police will write up what the calling
says and then the Police go to the other person and tells them an “Official Complaint” is being made against them.
Then, if he caller wants to go on with the Official Complaint, the caller needs to go get a copy of the Official
Comlaint themselves and take that Offical Complaint to the Prosecuters Office themselves!!!!
Many people are afraid of harm coming
to themselves, family, or property if they would do that themselves!!
What really goes on in the real current world is not written down for
everyone to see and speed read through
multiple rescources!
It was never stated that the Toledo Police have more Officers than ever before!
If any of you are looking for or only
December 15th, 2009 at 3:43 pmbelieve numbers and statistics, numbers
can show just what anyone wants them
to show!
Fox Toledo just reported that the officer that shot the 62 year old woman
was shot and killed by a Toledo Police
Officer had been trained in Crisis Intervention!!
What type of Crisis Intervention did
that Police Officer and all the others
get, where, and by who and to what
depth does the training give them??
Probably taught by the current Lucas
County Mental Health System and Mental
Health Professionals who only give
inadequate treatment to mental health
consumers themselves!!
Big Joke Training and so will be the
December 15th, 2009 at 4:18 pmFirearms & Shooting Investigation!
DD blah blah blah blah blah.
You’ve offered YOUR opinion and nothing more, and try to shove your said opinion down our collective throats. The interesting part is you weren’t even on the scene yet know all about what had happened.
DD, 48 police officers were drug tested and only 2 resulted in a positive result for drugs, and 46 passed with negative results. Show me your math where the other 2/3rd not tested are stoned out of their minds on duty. And all your bloviating is doing is amusing me.
I’m going to venture a qualified guess and surmise that #51 hit the nail on the head.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:20 pmFrom 48:
We have less police now then we did then and they were understaffed then so.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pmGuess you do not even know what Bologna
and Cheese looks or tastes like, Brian Maxson and many others and your unwilling to see and taste them yourselves!
You and others really do not want to know the
December 15th, 2009 at 4:34 pmtruth of the issues but only play with
others human lives by believing everything you speed read is the gospel truth and misleading numbers!
DD, you’re spending way too much time negatively speculating on posters that afford insight and perspective and not on facts as they are presented.
You’re under the impression that I’m oblivious to the needs of the mentally handicapped. You’re wrong. But I’m not going to delve into my experiences and waste valuable blog space justifying my qualifications with someone wearing blinders. You’d be stupid enough to say I still know nothing lol
I’m anxiously awaiting the math where you stated in post #6: “By the way Brian, if just recently there were FOUR Police Officers found quilty of alcohol and drugs – HOW MANY MORE ARE THERE???” when it’s been publically disclosed that 48 officers took the drug screening and only two failed and two officers were caught red-handed on the clock reeking of alcohol.
I’m so sorry that a woman was shot and killed by the police during a very trying and emotional event, but when it comes down to it, when a split-second decision is made to spare an innocent from injury or death or talk to someone that isn’t listening with a weapon in hand, the moment she lunged was the moment the correct decision was made.
You’re shooting from the hip yet you’re not using anything substantial. Just you violently shooting your opines at us and expect to enjoy the pain you’re inflicting.
I’ll expect more trite insults and smokescreened comments from you, seeing that’s all your “credibility” is loaded with….
December 15th, 2009 at 4:51 pmNothing substantial??
It is NOT just opinion!!
I can and so can enough other Citizens that would fill your wonderful
Sports Arena with eye witness testimony
of what we have all seen!
Your so called facts words, and numbers mean absolutely nothing when it comes to
human communication, relationships, and
life itself!
Maybe you had better be reading and following some of it on Facebook & Twitter.
Many of you just want to sit back hiding behind desks and computers and put words and numbers from here and there and every where and make decisions without ever seeing it yourselves!
What you don’t like or enjoy the taste and smell of Limburger Cheese??
December 15th, 2009 at 5:36 pmnope, nothing substantial there either pertaining to the topic.
It is NOT just opinion!!
yes, DD, yes it is…along with all that smoke
Many of you just want to sit back hiding behind desks and computers and put words and numbers from here and there and every where and make decisions without ever seeing it yourselves!
again, too much of a smokescreen to comment on this…
the investigation into this shooting is not yours to run, thank goodness.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:50 pmJohn51 FactYour right , woman off meds.Fact: Should of been intervention. If your wife cared as you say she probably helped a lot of people. Fact she cared too much to continue to fight upper managment. There are people who care too much, and can’t handle what what is going on because you can’t fight the system. Also I thought police were taught disarm people, someone comming at a TRAINED POLICE OFFICER With sizzors and 62 yrs old? They can’t defend themselves? two against one. No matter how you look at this picture, not right. No more from me on this subject. A woman is dead. Let us morn for her, and her family
December 15th, 2009 at 6:11 pmiT IS NOT OPINION!
IT IS ONLY MANY INDIVIDUALS OF LIFE PAST EXPERIENCES OF NEVER BEING AN EYE WITNESS YOURSELF AND/OR ONE OF YOUR OWN
LOVED ONES WERE NEVER INVOLVED OR SEEN IT FOR THEMSELVES AND/OR JUST CLOSE YOUR EYES TO IT ALL!!
RATHER HAVE A SMOKE SCREEN THAT ONE CAN FILTER EVERYTHING THROUGH AND CAN STILL SEE THROUGH INSTEAD OF A BRICK, CEMENT OR SOLID STEEL WALL AS MANY HAVE BUILT FOR THEMSELVES WHERE THEY CAN SEE NOTHING AT ALL FOR THEMSELVES!!
December 15th, 2009 at 6:21 pmAs stated many times, these Police SHOOTING Investigations are useless and THE
TRUTH DOES NOT COME OUT OF A MAJORITY OF THEM!!
The 62 year old woman is dead and cannot talk for herself now! The Police and Lucas County Mental Health System made sure of that now!
December 15th, 2009 at 7:00 pmHow exactly do you know about my life experiences?
You don’t.
So quit acting like you’re some sort of authority on mental illness because you’re not.
You’re basing your opinion on your own perspective. So why do you think shoving your opinion down my throat is going to convince me that your argument is valid? It’s not valid here.
You may have accidently made a valid point earlier, but a stopped clock is right twice a day, Bologna and Cheese boy…
December 15th, 2009 at 7:05 pmWe are getting way off track into personal exchanges, people can disagree with opinion and with how one person perceives something. I disagree with you DD when it comes to my own personal experiences with the police department.
I communicate with a great many people in the course of doing this blog, off and on blog, and while I do believe that we need to do more as far as the community mental health system and that the media does not focus on that the way they should, it is too early to make accusations and part of commenting on this blog is there will be those who will agree with you, disagree with you or only agree/disagree with part of what you personally relate.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:09 pmAs stated many times, these Police SHOOTING Investigations are useless and THE
TRUTH DOES NOT COME OUT OF A MAJORITY OF THEM!!
Have any facts to back up your slanderous statement?
Make sure you show your math!
December 15th, 2009 at 7:11 pmActually, Lisa, I’m thinking that DD has a horse in the race…otherwise there wouldn’t be so much passion behind his own beliefs.
I’m just trying to figure out where his horse will finish…
December 15th, 2009 at 7:13 pmIt is not on perspective and/or opinion!
It is on eye witness situtions but not only by myself but many other Citizens!
Evidently someone has no idea what slanderous means!
Facts and evidence are not just written words and numbers; eye witness
testimony is not allowed?
Many around here would keep out all eye
witness testimony even in a court of law if they can do it!
No one really knows how many are in the
December 15th, 2009 at 7:57 pmrace until the day actually comes and
your there to see and hear it!
By all means, share your perceptions and experiences but there are going to be those who have a different perception and different experiences.
And if they disagree because they’ve seen something different? They have that right. I’ve followed the firearms review process, police officers are not always found to be justified in shootings and as I stated earlier in the discussion, there is the Attorney General’s office if it is felt there is any disagreement, there is a process in place if it’s felt it was not handled properly.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:03 pmIt is others that continuously want
and demand mutiple written resources and/or written facts and numbers when
those items are many times misleading and not all of the actual
evidence.
Human interaction is not provable by only written facts, statistics!
December 15th, 2009 at 8:27 pmIf the situation was reversed, you’d prefer facts and some type of documentation as oppose to something someone wrote that you didn’t agree with, we all do.
Everyone’s idea of truth is their own perception, sometimes many of us perceive the exact same thing, sometimes we don’t. I had a different perception on many things until I started doing this blog…
December 15th, 2009 at 8:30 pmOver the years I learned to look at written facts and written documentation
but in most circumstances looking and deeping further into the explanations,
eye witness accounts and/or others can give a better and more trueful explanatiun of it all.
Written facts and statistics are one sided.
Also learned, don’t believe everything that is written or stated by others, go
and check it out before you form an opinion or make a decision!
Especially with human interaction involved!
December 15th, 2009 at 9:03 pmAnother thing, Lisa Renee, I know of an
agency that I will not name but I know you and many others know of it. They did a survey of the 500 plus people they serve and then reported in their own Newsletter and to other people and places that 89% of the people they serve reported they were very satisified with the services they provided to them.
On a separate page in very fine print
which hardly anyone reads stated that
the survey had been sent to the 500 plus people and
18 people responded to the survey.
Eighteen people they served out of 500 plus people and report that 89% are
very satisified with their services??
What about the other 400 plus people that never even responded to the survey?
This is how misleading and unreliable
December 15th, 2009 at 9:29 pmregarding written facts, statistics, and documentation can be!!
Did you listen to WTOL Channel 11 news report at 11 o’clock this evening everyone??
Just I stated much earlier on this BLOG
earlier today!
WTOL mentioned the so-called Crisis Intervention training the Toledo Police
Officers receive here.
WTOL reported it and that it is a voluntary training given by
who in the world else but the
Lucas County Mental Health and Recovery
Board & Professionals!
Incapable, incompetent, greedy Lucas County Mental Health Board and Mental
Health Professionals!
They have no idea how to give in-depth
training!
No wonder people get shot and killed!!
December 15th, 2009 at 11:20 pmLets see, police tell you to “stop”, you stop. Police say, “show me your hands”, you show your hands. Police say, “drop the thing in your hand”, you drop it. Police say, “don’t move”, you don’t move. Seems pretty simple to me. Follow directions and 99.9% of the time it pretty much works out. (Sorry Brian M, don’t have any actual math to back up the 99.9% figure, just an educated guess
I’m wondering if “DD’s” perspective might be a tad bit different if the knife wielding women would have been bearing down on him. Would he want the police to take an extra 2 or 3 minutes to decide the best course of action to take to remedy the situation?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………
December 15th, 2009 at 11:55 pmAfter reading all these posts I am wondering how many posting have had personal one on one experience in dealing with someone who is out of control and armed with a weapon? It is a very frightening experience and doesn’t always turn out the way it should no matter how much training someone recieves.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:08 amI agree Justin.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:10 amAnother scenario that may or may not exist anymore used to go like this…An alleged criminal is injured in the commission of a crime. They are admitted to a hospital and are not charged with the crime until discharge. Why? Because the government entity charging them with the crime would have to pay the bill if they arrest them first. So..the hospital staff becomes the jailor. How much training do you think a typical hospital staff recieves in handling violent people?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:29 amA 62 year old woman with a heart condition and mental illness, lying on a bed and believed to be the “Mrs. Green Hulk”??
And 2 young, supposedly strong and trained enough Toledo Police Officers cannot sub-due a 62 year old woman??
Just want to blame the mentally ill
December 16th, 2009 at 12:31 amperson which just proves many people’s
stigma towards them and refuse to ackknowledge the truth!!
It would be interesting to know what government entity is responsible for monitoring conditions in a group home? Where are the reports? Are they online? Are they operated like nursing homes?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:33 amA mentally disabled person has the ability to mentally ignore fear. Or in some instances isn’t even aware what “fear” is.
Their synapses fire differently than yours and mine. Hence the need for “medication”.
Where you see an officer with their weapon drawn towards you, a reasonably sober and sane person would drop the knife.
A “disoriented” person sees the officer as a barrier from leaving the area, and with weapon, a threat. Self-preservation kicks in and that’s when the stupid stuff happens.
But seeing you’re well-educated in the mental field, you’d know that, right DD?
I trust your educated guess, SWR. lol
December 16th, 2009 at 5:20 amI can’t believe you all are arguing about something like this. what, with obama trying to take over 1/6 of the economy, spending like a drunken sailor, about to put in place job destroying environmental regulations, and is supporting the biggest transfer of wealth program – “climate change” – in the history of the world.
Hahaha. Have a nice day.
December 16th, 2009 at 5:39 amOh, some people believe that they are the reincarnation of Freud??
No one knows what any person is thinking or what is going on through ones mind whether sane or insane!
December 16th, 2009 at 8:47 amSeems like the officers acted appropriately. However, we all should wait for the final report to make our own assessments.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:36 pmwaaay back up to kat #9, the punishment you were referring to was the department punishment. They still have to face criminal charges where those punishments you described will likely be handed down.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm@86
True DD – “No one knows what any person is thinking or what is going on through ones mind whether sane or insane”!
Another reason to for a police officer to protect himself at all times as if his life depended on it. Rational or not, sane or not, an unknown individual with a knife coming at you is a threat. The police do not have the luxury that we have right now to analyze, dissect and second guess the incident. It basically comes down to a split second decision on whether the officer will be going home to their family at the end of his or her shift or to the morgue.
We are all sorry that someone lost there life but these officers put themselves in harms way every time they report for duty. Until you walk in their shoes be careful not judge. Maybe you (DD) should inquire about doing a ride along to see what our police officers have to deal with everyday. Might be an eye opening experience.
And as for the idea of somehow that a “bad shooting” would be covered up? Are you kidding me!? The unfortunate incidents with the intoxicated patrolman and failed drug tests would suggest that the last thing that would be done would cover up anything. In fact I would suggest that in today’s society we are more apt to throw our civil servants under the bus instead of initially giving them the benefit of the doubt. Why is that people actually blame the responding police officers instead of the person who precipitated the act. Follow societies rules and for the most part everything works out.
December 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pmWell then, I wonder why the Toledo Police are not shooting and killing more of the drug heads and alcoholics
who are threatened by them almost every day of the week instead of Mental Health Consumers??
Police Officers are afraid to get a few bruises and or scratches themselves
December 16th, 2009 at 6:08 pmin tryng to sub-due a 62 year old woman?? Just Shoot & Kill instead!!
LisaRenee….’bout time to shut this down. Not much new, just talking in circles. DDBOOTS is no longer entertaining.
December 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pmLike many of you…I was aghast at 1st about the whole thing. But after giving it some thought..honesly I think I would have done exactly as the officers have done.
No matter how sad and tragic the nature of the woman’s life, the Officer(s) acted as trained and as I would have by instinct. If an out of control person charged me w/ knife or scisors, I would have opened fire as well.
Where I depart is the well known policy of the TPD to only train “Shoot to kill”, rather than a broad spectrum of defensive while non- lethal options. In this situation I would like to think I would have shot her in 1 or both legs. This would have stopped her and likely not killed her. My point is I think that the option should be on the table to shoot w/o killing if the situation warrants it.
December 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pmbecause they’re easier to subdue….duh!
and five incidents of mentally ill people whom threatened the police with weapons shot dead in two years is not a trend which happens almost every day of the week.
No idea how the reports on those first four were investigated, eh?
wonder if you’ll still be around when THIS investigation is complete, DD?
December 16th, 2009 at 6:36 pmBob, I don’t disagree, I think everyone has said what they can say on this, the Mayor did release a statement today and I agree with his basic premise, that we should let the process go forward and speculation doesn’t help anyone at this point.
There will be plenty of time to discuss this in more depth once the investigation is complete. I’ll leave the thread open for anyone new who wants to comment for a bit, then if the re-debating/re-hashing of points made continues, shut it down.
December 16th, 2009 at 6:51 pmI could go on for days but will try to keep this short and to the point…
I am a retired TPD officer. I was involved in a fatal shooting in 1996. The person had mental issues and was also not taking his medications. No choice in my shooting; either return fire or many others, including myself, would have been shot and killed.
Only in Hollywood does ANYBODY shoot a gun out of a hand or shoot the kneecap, etc. As a firearms instructor I pride myself with my accuracy. BUT, given a stressful situation, EVERYONE’s shooting abilities greatly diminish. IMMPOSSIBLE to “aim” at a leg or arm to “wing ‘em”.
ALL officers, NOT just Toledo, I repeat ALL OFFICERS nationwide are taught to shoot center mass to immediately stop the threat. NOBODY is taught to shoot to kill. Insane to think police are taught to shoot to kill. You need to do a bit more studying on the subject.
Yes, head shots are taught at close range because (without getting gross), it stops the computer instantly and the threat is over.
I live with my shooting and deadly results on a DAILY basis. 13 years later and I can still recall EVERY detail, including the smell in the air and of the house. The bad dreams never stop. I killed during Desert Storm, but have very limited memories of that. However, my police memories will never go away.
What about the officers involved in the shooting? I know both of them and they are not only great officers, but great people. They did not go to work hoping to “kill someone” today. It happens. They will need counseling for years. Anyone stating that an officer needs to “man up” and have a beer to celebrate a shooting is just plain stupid!
Bottom line: The world is full of criminals and also filled with mentally challenged individuals. An officer does not have the time nor the ability to determine if the person threatening a life is a criminal or has a mental illness. Dead is dead. The officers reacted properly. You would have done the same.
Next time, please don’t call the police. Call the mental health professionals. Let’s see how they handle the situation. Simple. They back off and call the police. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Sorry. I’d be glad to offer more input if anyone asks. Thanks.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pmKeith, thanks for sharing your perspective on this and putting it into context of the officers as well. It’s really easy to play arm chair quarterback as well as judge and jury on the internet. There are real people involved in this and you’ve made some very valid points.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:45 pmThanks for the persepctive Keith. I think these first hand accounts are the ones that maybe offer some insight into not only this situation, but also possibly the substance abuse that is affecting the other officers. My husband is a firefighter and has dealt with a lot of death, but when he had a child the same age as ours die in her bed, he started waking up in the middle of the night and waking our daughter. Since his most recent fatal fire, he’s taken to inappropriately checking family and friends’ smoke detectors. So when I hear random beeps over the holidays, I am sure it will be my husband
96 comments have been made about this shooting and the only one that really has any true merit is the one from the person who experienced it first hand. I don’t know what I would do if faced with a threat, I wouldn’t even want to try to pull up to that unknown. I also wouldn’t want to go into fires, or God forbid see people not come out alive. I haven’t seen it, so I can’t judge, and no one else should either.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:57 pmNo matter of anyone’s opinion of what
December 16th, 2009 at 10:42 pmever was the appropriate or inappropriate way to handle this situation, how about each on your own having a minute of silence of dignity and respect for the 62 year old mentally ill woman along with the Toledo Police Officers.
In support of Keith, he’s right about several things. The idea about shooting the gun out of someone’s hand is pure Hollywood. I couldn’t do it, and I’m good. I’m a better shot than most police, and I would never try shooting at the gun, or the arms or the legs. The reason is simple: I’d miss. Not just nine out of ten, either. I’d miss all the shots, then I’d be toast.
Police are taught to shoot center mass. All combat shooters are taught to shoot center mass, because it’s the only thing you might hit. The other thing combat shooters are taught is to keep shooting until the target vanishes, hopefully by falling down, other times by ducking for hard cover. As long as the target is in front of you and you have ammo, you keep shooting. When you pull the trigger and nothing happens, it’s time to reload.
Coincidentally this combination of center mass and keep shooting will often result in the death of the opponent. Although it’s never taught, this is the ’shoot to kill’ that I see being argued. The premise is that if you shoot someone, it is likely they will die. You will have killed them, and this is common knowledge at the end of the combat shooting course.
I would also remind folks that if a mere civilian shoots someone, it is presumed in criminal court that the shooter is attempting to kill the target. Not wound. Kill.
Without passing judgment on this particular shooting, I would say that if anyone doesn’t want the police to shoot people or animals, the very first thing to do is take away their guns.
December 16th, 2009 at 11:33 pmwhat’s the matter, DD, choking on that crow?
December 17th, 2009 at 4:38 amSuggested Reading – Toledo Blade, December 17, 2009, Editorial “Limits to
December 17th, 2009 at 8:35 amlethal force”.
Second Suggested Reading, Police and Menal Health Crisis Intervention
The Police and Mental Health — Lamb et al. 53 (10): 1266 — Psychiatr Serv
December 17th, 2009 at 9:59 amhttp://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/53/10/1266
Updated: 12/17/2009 09:48:06
Well, it certainly didn’t take long for Godwin’s Law to appear in this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
December 17th, 2009 at 12:03 pmResource to read or see -
Daniel G Amen, M.D. Psychiatrist and
December 17th, 2009 at 12:24 pmAuthor of many books. Also shown on
PBS Channel 30 sometimes during their
Pledge times.
Request free Publication from SAMHSA:
Practice Guidelines: “Core Elements in Responding to Mental Health Crises”
December 17th, 2009 at 12:29 pm