It does not appear the 14 laid off police officers are being called back…
With all of the discussion recently related to forcing police officers who were on light duty to either return to work or go on leave, you’d think that some of the 14 police officers still laid off might be called back to work. You also might think with the COPS grant accepted by the City that there would be some idea as to when these officers could be called back as a part of that grant and that with the overtime for police still up there, recalling at least some of the 14 would be done. That doesn’t appear to be the case when you watch/read WTVG’s coverage, The Forgotten Fourteen by Greg Bilazarian. It’s being reported that the Mayor does not intend to call any of these officers back, from their story:
We asked Toledo mayor Carty Finkbeiner if there is there a plan to bring those officers back. And were told: “We have no money, we’re $7.8 million in debt.”
But while the city saves money on layoffs, it spends money on overtime. Everyday, the department tells us it shells out eight hours of overtime to two to three officers, because there is an officer shortage caused by layoffs and retirements.
Carty told the group: “I’m sorry sir, you’re going into things just because it’s a hot button issue with you and 14 or 15 other people. I’m not prepared to discuss inner workings of personnel in city of Toledo.”
It would be less expensive to just call back a few police officers than to pay overtime every day.
It also would be less expensive for the city to make non-essential city workers part time so the city isn’t responsible for paying for health and other benefits.
October 7th, 2009 at 1:50 pmthis story irked me – with every other city department slashed by over 50% (other than fire and police), with tens of thousands of people in the city unemployed, and with these 14 receiving 40% of their pay, why focus on them!? in that same broadcast, ch 13 mentioned the lay-off of hundreds of employees at a plant in the region and that “13abc” would be sponsoring an employment fair – many thousands are hurting and most of those that are are in worse shape than these.
remember, these are the unions that refused to give back overly generous benefits – a giveback that would have given them benefits more in line with standards that all of us have to live with AND a giveback that would have resulted in no safety force layoffs. their union said no.
they should blame the more senior members of their unions. and 13abc should not be pandering to this group. toledo is millions in the hole and can not afford them – sad but true. they dare not leave toledo because when they eventually do get called back, they know the citizens of toledo are the cash cow they can milk.
bad policy; terribly incomplete and lazy journalism.
October 7th, 2009 at 4:57 pmThat’s 14 fewer policemen to catch our mayor running red lights.
October 8th, 2009 at 1:15 pmZimmy…I completely agree. While I empathize with them as much as I do all people who have lost their job or been laid off, no more or less so. Had they conceeded on the surplus of bennies they would all still be working. Making a lil less instead of a lot less would have been my option. Greed has never built up any society but it surely has destroyed many.
toledojim…. to be fair..it was his precious Red Light Cameras that got him
)
October 8th, 2009 at 5:20 pmchad. true. LOL! Can’t wait for his term to end.
October 8th, 2009 at 10:42 pm“with every other city department slashed by over 50% (other than fire and police)”
Seriously??? Name a department in the City that has had their budget slashed by this amount and show me the numbers. The full budget was posted online for the City months ago. That’s a ridiculous claim….
“and with these 14 receiving 40% of their pay, why focus on them!?”
They receive nothing other than unemployment benefits from the State. Only the UAW has had a job bank pay program locally, which is now gone. There is no “sub-pay” coming from the City.
I agree with post#1, Robin.
October 9th, 2009 at 12:27 ambuilding inspection, parks and rec, economic development, plan commission, law department – compare their staffing of 5 years ago, 10 years ago. road repair has slowed way down and we are only doing superficial repairs rather than rebuilds and far fewer miles. that’s six.
one of the officers quoted in the story said 40% and the reporter repeated that number – ask them.
who is non-essential? in that case would you want to also make rank and file safety personnel part-time so we can save on their retirement and medical. that way far more unemployed people can be hired and have SOME work.
NO – if toledo is going to have employees in any department they should be full-time with reasonable pay and benefits that compare to the private sector.
it sounds as though you or your family benefits from being with the safety forces – you don’t think benefits should be scaled back to reasonable numbers, you want all cuts to come from other city departments and none from fire and police.
October 9th, 2009 at 2:32 pmi take back that last paragraph – unfair assumption on my part – sorry
October 9th, 2009 at 2:51 pmZimmy:
Not to nit-pick but the more accurate numbers that should be looked at are about 225. There are, including the 14 laid off officers, about 225 vacant jobs at the TPD.
These officers, if you REALLY watched the news coverage, were upset that they were recieving NO communication from the City as to their date of return. The Mayor had said previously as retirements happened they would be called back 1 for 1. Since the layoff there have been 15(? not positive but thats close) retirements and only 1 officer called back.
ADDITIONALLY the benefits you want Officers to return were given to TPD in previous contracts IN LEIU OF RAISES !! The pension pickups saved the City MILLIONS of dollars for YEARS !! Now TPD is greedy expecting to keep recieving what is basically part of their base salary ??
Lastly I think that people would be sick and tired of calling 911 and having to wait hours for the police to respond. Put 225 more officers BACK on the force (one of the Mayor’s broken promises) which would GREATLY reduce the crime rate. Thus making TOLEDO a much better/safer community which would stop people from moving out in droves.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:56 amthere are hundreds more jobs throughout the city that are “vacant” in all departments.
the pers pick-up is sooo much more valuable than the raises you might have received and when the politicians negotiated those benefits they did not protect the public interest but rather their own re-election interest – in trying to secure public employee union endorsements politicians gave away way overly generous benefits.
we could have many more police officers on the streets if police and fire were paid less in wages and benefits – wages and benefits more in line with public sector and national standards. in a city that is shrinking in population and experiencing such dire financial woes, why are our PUBLIC – tax-payer funded – employees the only ones who continue to have such overly generous medical and retirement fund benefits.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:53 pmWell just a few points there Zimmy about your last post.
1. Toledo Police and Fire are NOT in the PERS retirement system. We are in Ohio Police and Fire.
2. I’ll expalin this so you can unstand how the city did SOOOO save money on the pension pickups. First the City is paying us LESS wages. Thats right, if we had gotten the raises we would make MORE money and even without the pickups the City would have to contribute more to our retirements.
The CITY were the ones that suggested this policy and it went on under both the first 2 Finkbiner terms, under Jack Ford, then again under Mayor Finkbiner. So for almost 16 years your saying the CITY was wrong ?? This wasn’t suggested by the GREEDY COPS !!
And con your last paragraph, WHO in the private sector, puts on a uniform, runs into a fire, or into GUNFIRE ?? Who’s pay scale am I to use ? Toledo is not the highest paid department in the state buy we are 225+ people undermanned and have 130 people that could leave now.
I have not gotten even cost of living increases during my employ here. I work off duty alot to keep my family in a comfortable manner. (Not complaining about that) But I really don’t like people calling me lazy, overpaid, and underworked. I show up, do my job (and the job of another employee as we are so short) and hope to go home alive at night.
You apparently don’t like the police, and alot of people don’t. But realize when you call 911 we come, either fast or slow, in all weather, everyday, 365 days a year. We’re here to protect you.
Now with that said, what do you think I should be paid ? The ammount my contract states ? Or what ammount you think. Mabye you should run for council and vote down our next contract.
TPD
October 15th, 2009 at 12:11 amBoth tpd and zimmy have valid points from my point of view. However, you both swing too far to the opposing side.
I don’t consider the Police “greedy”, but more along the lines of unrealistic considering the finances of the city and population. I never blame anyone for trying to get the best deal in compensation. Everyone wants to be paid as they think they should be. In fairness, the Police and Fire do have an incredibly dangerous job and work in high risk often. That should be compensated to the best of the City’s ability.
The problem is that “ability” has dropped substantially over recent years and it’s looking like it has come down to deciding between taking less compensation to retain employment durring a difficult time, or losing jobs.
This happens in the private sector all the time and should come as no shock that the trickle effect has taken it to the core of the city. There’s no promise of tomorrow for anyone, and savy folks should know that in times like we are in, there are going to have to be some bending and near breaking on both sides to retain the most and provide the best.
There are options for the city that are far less appealing than just a handful of give backs and as an individual who has seen the effect of drastic changes to the structure, I can assure that it’s really time to come to the table with open eyes and understanding.
There are lots and lots and lots of people out of work and hungry for a job, so there will be someone at the heels of the unyeilding to take their place at the drop of a hat.
Things I’ve seen done in the private sector that have brought the overhead of a company down:
Eliminating nearly all full time positions. This cuts health care costs to 50/50 or nothing. Cut’s all other bennies in a similar manner. The reduction of paid holidays from 20+ to 3(Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas) Unless you work for the Federal Gov, Federal Holidays are mute.
Elimination of comp time, personal days, sick days, reduction to a max of 2 weeks vacation (which would not be paid at all if you were a part time employee), 1-2% max cost of living increases, pay increase freezes across the board. This list goes on into infinity.
I realize this cuts the value and desire to have these types of jobs but remember…though some will scoff and moan and quit, there’s thousands of people with no job that would take a shit job rather than go hungry, lose their home etc.
In my neighborhood, I’ve seen the effect of the drop in the Ranks…it’s terrible. I would love to see a fully staffed and available Police and Fire force. We need to figure out in a solid way how to make this happen and get the most bang for the buck.
We have to accept across the board that we have to live in the here and now and not assume that there’s a promise of tomorrow. All City Departments must make sacrifices in compensation to retain the most jobs…it’s that simple. It happens in the rest of the working sector and it’s going to happen within the city like it or not. IMO…it’s best for the employees to sit down and figure out what they need, vs. what they want and offer up what they can live without. If the powers that be make that decision for you, it will suck worse than if you decide.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:21 amJust to clairify a point on my 1st post on this thread (the term greed) applies to all City Employees who insist on zero give backs or a “trade” of 1 type of paid day for another type of paid day which is of little to no savings. I’ve said for over 3 years now that sacrifice on all parts is required and everyone must hurt some so that nobody hurts a lot.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:30 amChad, I would agree with most of your above post, but citing my own job as an example who in their right mind would be a police officer with no health benefits ?? Your suggesting that if I get shot/wounded I have no health care ?? What sense does that make.
I do not in any way shape or form have 20+ paid holidays, I have 5. And if scheduled to work them I am afforded 4 hours of overtime. Thats it. In 16+ years I’ve worked most Thankgivings, Easters, and Christmases. (sp?) I’ve had to go to the domestics where the dad and mom got drunk and take the kids to csb. No holiday and no fun.
I don’t want another job, I love my job. But when we are out here busting our asses, having benefit dinners every other week to help out our laid off officers, and taking an unexpected 7% pay cut. Then to have sombody who does not have all the facts, or just shoots from the cuff and calls us greedy/spoiled/lazy it offends me greatly.
In the last 4 years one of our officers was shot, one was killed and we would have lost another one 2 months ago if the suspect had a round in the chamber of his gun.
But we all still come to work every day. And I personally feel that perhaps when the police come to your door, or you have contact with them in some way, your first response should be to at least be civil. Not to insinuate greed or corruption at every turn. It’s bad enough dealing with the A**holes out here without having to read a reiteration of the lies from the 22nd floor in every news story.
I guess thats enough of a rant for now.
TPD
October 17th, 2009 at 3:05 amTPD… I wouldn’t expect any employee to go without health-care coverage. I do however expect that even the Safety Forces would have similar coverage as the average citizen. for example…and 80/20 program. Co-pays in line with the average and so on.
My understanding, which could be flawed, is that if you are injured on the job, the cost of that care is covered under other plans such as worker’s comp, or a similar fund and that “health-care” costs as defined under a insured provider cover the everyday concerns that anyone has off the job. ( Dr visits, reg. medications, and so on).
No doubt, Being a Fireman or Police Officer is in the top arena of dangerous jobs, as you pointed out..you choose it. It takes special kinds of people to do those kinds of jobs and I respect the work done deeply. After all, I live in the inner city on 1 of the most notorious corners in Toledo. I rely on the protection and service of both the Police and Fire on a fairly frequent basis. In 3 years of living on this corner I’ve seen it all from drug deals to assaults, people held at gun point, gang members taken down on my lawn, houses all around me vadalized, fire bombed, hookers, my back door kicked in and a tv taken, and more…
Toledo needs a fully staffed Police and Fire departments. I just think that everyone involved needs to see the money situation for what it is and come to terms that for a period of time, we’re not able to afford generous compensations for any City Employee. To tell the truth, what bothers me more than the health care generosity is the outrageous paying of thousands of dollars in unused sick time, comp days and double dipping. Those are areas where I believe most people can afford to give back for the time being. It’s very rare for unused sick days to be paid out in the private sector. Great you were not sick, no need to pay you double for working and not being sick. I find it stupid to pay someone for not being sick as sick days are to insure you don’t lose pay if sick, not double pay you. Just that single topic alone would save the City thousands and make it easier to afford job retention.
October 18th, 2009 at 8:50 amWell this is the last time I’m gonna plow all the way back to this old post. But it is obivous that you (chad and zimmy) are avid blade readers and have no real idea what our health care plans, pay rates and such really are. Comp time you wish to have removed is EARNED as overtime. (FEDERAL LAW) That time is either taken as money, or as time off. Can’t take that one. If you want me too I’ll use my sick days now, I have over 1000 hours, thats about 125 days off. If I take those days now, who’s gonna do my job ? NOBODY thats who !! That time is NOT sold back at face value but at a much reduced rate. And I am unaware of ANYONE “double dipping” anything on TPD. We are in Ohio Police and Fire. If you retire, you CANNOT be rehired into our pension system. Most of this discussion is govenred by the “Federal Labor and Standards Act” (FLSA) This governs not only City/State/Federal employees, but people in the private sector as well. And as this country is plowing toward socialized medicine you want to cut my benefits ??
Stop by 1947 Franklin Ave, (Corner of Franklin and Woodruff) and ask to review one of our contracts, and perhaps all the ACTUAL numbers that our negotiation team complied of the lies and such that our Mayor tells.
And if you wish please stop by today between 5pm and 7pm and join us for the “Blue Blanket Dinner” that we give every payday to assist the laid off officers.
I don’t believe either of you have the best interests of this City at heart. Otherwise you would want the best employees here and to maintain the benefits they have.
Additionally despite all the above posts no other city employees were laid off besides Police. There were positions eliminated and hours reduced but no other layoffs.
TPD
October 22nd, 2009 at 2:24 amForgot to mention, AGAIN, we DID TAKE A 7% pay cut !! The Blade and the Mayor seem to have forgotten that.
TPD
October 22nd, 2009 at 2:25 amThe pension pick up and the way the health care benefits are paid represent the biggest budget outliers in the City budget, and in particular, within the general fund. So far TPPA has been willing to allow members to be laid off rather than recognize that the pension pick up alone exceeded the 2008 budget deficit, and is unsupportable going forward. I grow weary being told all the versions of how this excessively costly package came into being. I believe a fully developed analysis comparing Toledo’s package to other Ohio cities will show that Toledo is the highest. Regardless, the safety division is primarily a General Fund budget item. The General Fund is the best barometer of how Toledoans are doing, and it is the GF deficit that must be addressed. It is definitely true to say that the “royalty” among local employees are those who pay nothing for their “annuity type” retirements because they are supported by the “peasantry” who have neither the pay nor the fully covered benefits, and whose retirement income is dependent on market conditions, not fixed and guaranteed. And by the way, the “peasants” are expected to pay into their own (non fixed or guaranteed) retirements while also paying for all the costs (employer and employee) for the “royalty.” The TPPA knows all of this, but apparently believes that it can scare the public since that tactic has worked so well with so many politicians, and maintain its royalty level package. It’s great to fly first class, especially when someone else is paying for it . . .
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:58 amComp time and sick pay are not benefits enjoyed by the majority of the workforce in the private sector. Those type of freebies should be terminated at the earliest convenience. It is a shame that government pisses away the taxpayer money, just to stay in power by keeping whiney unions happy.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:02 amWell again I foolishly returned to this thread and I again invite you to come to the Union hall as nobody posting here has a clue what they are talking about.
We are FAR from the highest paid in the State and you are fixated on the lies told in the media and refuse to see anything you don’t want to see.
The 14 laid off are back tomorrow.
I’m losing benifits every year. If you think I’m underpaid come do a ride along sometime and see the ammount of work we do.
TPD
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:04 pmWe are all losing benefits, every day. Why do you think that is?
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:24 pmTPD do you think you are any better than the real folks are? Don’t you realize we are all hurting, struggling? What makes your union special, more important, more privileged than the common folk?
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 pmI think it’d be pretty cool, seriously, to watch you specifically put your life on the line every day and watch your decision-making skills when you’re about to get shot in the face for minimum wage, NA.
But then again, if anything ever happened to you, it’d be Barack’s fault….
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 amI again state you are all invited to come and do a ride along. I’m sure from reading your posts you have a VAST knowlege of police work from watching CSI/Law and Order/ and Cops.
All the posts here seem to want the employees of the City of Toledo to simply give up their benefits and grovel at the citizen’s feet. To quote above, “the whiney unions” and “you think your better then us” and alot of “private sector jobs, blah blah blah.”
Well to answer that, I was pointing out facts and not stating my opinion as most of you have. And now Brian wants to see me get shot in the face. (Thanks Brian !!)
I think all of you should come do a ride along, get out from behind your computer and see what the real world is like.
And if you had any idea how much crime is going on in this city that is not being investigated, followed up, or even reviewed at a supervisory level due to low manpower you would be shocked.
Again as stated in previous posts the comp time is paid out for overtime worked, this is federal law and the city cannot do away with it. The pension pickups saved the city millions for the last 12+ years, I’ve tried to explain how but none of you want to listen.
The real facts are not reported on the news. The mayor FINALLY looked at some REAL numbers yesterday and saw that 36 people had retired while 14 were laid off. (He thought that was a lie last week)
And again, go to 1947 Franklin ave, the TPPA and look at the ACTUAL numbers, look at our ACTUAL contract and see what the truth is. Even with the 14 back we are 200+ undermanned.
I was there when Joe Chapel shut this city down in 1997 with a single shot shotgun. You all saw the shooting at Route 66 on national TV. If you think it’s gonna get better around here your in for a RUDE AWAKENING.
TPD
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:58 amAnd I’d also like to point out that ALL CITY UNIONS TOO PAY CUTS !! 7-12% !!
All I see is 3-4 people that seem to think they know whats happening and they don’t.
TPD
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:01 amummm…TPD?
You may want to try and re-read my post.
It was directed to NA, or “Not Again”.
My apologies for the confusion….
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 pmAnd let me point this out to you, TPD. I’ve been consistant on advocating for the police for a very long time.
And in each incident where the police seemed to have used excessive force in a situation by mainstream media and ignorant citizenry, I’ve clearly stated many times that a “forcible arrest” during a difficult take-down is justified, period.
Being someone that has been on the “other side” of the law in my youth, I do understand what you’re up against these days out on the streets and in my opinion the “first responders” should be awarded more breathing room while doing their job, let alone benefitting with the higher salary and better benefits than the regular citizen or city employee.
But in the same breath, if one of the police are found and charged and convicted with a crime, I’m all about putting them in jail for life.
It’s clear many on this thread just cannot appreciate the thankless efforts your job entails…
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:22 pm“I don’t believe either of you have the best interests of this City at heart. Otherwise you would want the best employees here and to maintain the benefits they have. ”
Seriously? You’ve missed my point. “Wanting” and able are what I’m talking about. It has nothing to do with desire to maintain the forces as they are, improve and expand even. It’s the “and to maintain the benefits they have” that is currently the issue. Not Just for Police and Fire, but for all City Employees.
TPD..If I had the choice, I woulda shut down all the fluffy city departments and never touched the Safety aspect.
The problem is not a divide between private Citizens and Public Safety Forces..it’s a divide between City Gov. and all Citizens on what priorities are and how to best alter how things are done to allow acceptance of much lower revenues and the corisponding lowered services.
October 25th, 2009 at 10:44 amas an after thought…I haven’t read “The Blade” in years and don’t believe anything Carty says..ever.
October 25th, 2009 at 10:48 am