The Truth: Applauding selection of Rick Warren & the loss of a loved one…
While this week’s This Strikes Us in the Sojourner’s Truth makes it clear they don’t agree with all of the positions taken by Rev. Rick Warren; the editorial shares their reasons why they applaud it:
Nevertheless, we applaud the future president for the selection of Warren, even as we hope the good reverend will keep in check his own anti-gay, anti-choice views during the invocation. But whether he does or not, the choice still makes sense and gives credence to the fact, as Obama said so often before and during his campaign, that it is time to stop looking at those in this country who hold different opinions on social issues as if they were the enemy.
Last week’s column by Lafe Tolliver, “Four Thoughts That Keep Me Up At Night” created a response that I recommend reading, One Thought That Provokes Me . There’s more in this week’s Truth that I hope you read, including the cover story, Alvetta: John Moore’s Tribute to His Life’s Partner. I can’t claim to be successful in the marriage department, but the experience of losing a loved one, sitting there holding their hand because there is nothing more you can do but wait for them to permanently leave you, is one I have lived through. It is seven years this month since my best friend, my father, passed away and there have been more than a few times that I wished I would have put into words some of the things I was feeling during that time, as John Moore did.
We talked about my father yesterday, part missing him since Christmas was his favorite holiday, part speculating on what his reaction would be as to what I’ve accomplished since his death. He was my biggest fan so I can only imagine him bragging to anyone who would listen as well as the possibility of having to ban/edit my own father if he felt he needed to “defend me” or “correct me,” as well as the huge discussions that would have happened off blog since the two of us did not agree politically on a great many topics…
Well Rick Warren is being used, but I suspect he knows that and obviously doesn’t care. That’s Rick Warren’s problem, not the problem of other believers. I don’t personally know one evangelical believer who follows Rick Warren’s ideas. He is mistrusted by a huge number of evangelicals. Yeah, I know, he’s supposedly the new Billy Graham. The implications of that are too complicated to go into here. But if the powers that be think they can use Rick Warren to pull the wool over the eyes of thinking people in general, and evangelicals in particular, they will be sorely disappointed. Too many of us see the dog and pony show for what it is.
What most evangelicals think about this inauguration thing is this. Rick Warren is putting his stamp of approval on the presidency of a pro-abortion proponent.
But if this signals to the biblically uninterested that “ooh, ahh, evangelicals will now be quiet on this topic because RW is their “leader”…. well dream on. Spiritual integrity will dictate otherwise.
December 26th, 2008 at 12:39 pm“it is time to stop looking at those in this country who hold different opinions on social issues as if they were the enemy”
Probably the most ironic statement by an Obama supporter ever
December 26th, 2008 at 12:53 pmThe statement is not only ironic, but it’s also self-defeating:
1. Telling people to “stop looking at those in this country who hold different opinions on social issues” presupposes that it’s wrong for people to do that.
Obama and his followers fail to explain why it’s wrong or why he doesn’t like what’s going on. The statement itself is an opinion about social issues.
2. The statement itself is critical of “those who hold different opinions on social issues” for criticizing.
3. The statement itself regards the enemy as the “people who hold different opinions on social issues” as the enemy.”
4. The statement itself was made in an attempt to refute those “who hold different opinions on social issues”. But this statement is self-refuting because it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
5. Since the statement defeats itself, it cannot be regarded as a real and logical solution to the impasse on social issues.
December 26th, 2008 at 2:00 pmIf you look at Obama’s quote, it says nothing about not criticizing or disagreeing with the opinion of others, it says we should not treat them like the enemy.
December 26th, 2008 at 4:47 pmWarren was a bad choice by Obama. He might as well invite a racist to do the invocation.
December 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pmYes, we are supposed to “disagree without being disagreeable”.
December 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm“Warren was a bad choice by Obama. He might as well invite a racist to do the invocation.”
Rev Wright retired!
December 26th, 2008 at 11:51 pmHarumph. What a load of crap.
“# 1 truthseeker Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
What most evangelicals think about this inauguration thing is this. Rick Warren is putting his stamp of approval on the presidency of a pro-abortion proponent. ”
As an ACTUAL evangelical I can clearly state that this is crap. What ‘I’ think is that that while these two parties disagree on some details – they agree on the big picture. While they may not be able to control what all people, everywhere, decide to do with their reproductive life – they agree that it is right that Christ should be present in prayer at times of great import. Such as the inauguration of a new President.
I hate being pigeon holed. It’s just so biased.
December 26th, 2008 at 11:54 pmOh hogwash. ACTUAL evangelicals know scripture, which you plainly do not. Every abortion is a murder and has nothing to do with “reproductive life”. Are African American churches in droves giving Obama a pass on such things as his stand on killing the unborn? – yup. Are they following the Word of God in so doing? Nope. Am I surprised that these congregations compromise themselves because they love the praise of man more than the praise of God? Well considering the welcome mat they put out for ANY Democrat… nope.
And good one Sepp.
December 27th, 2008 at 11:13 amWarren is a good pick. He is an obvious Democrat, he helps alot of people in Africa. He takes white evangelicals to poverty stricken places to help black people. He is heroic for doing that
December 27th, 2008 at 11:23 amTruth- He reaches across the aisle, it s ok , a good thing to do that. Remember , it was Warren who put Obama on the spot with his tough question in the forum at his church.
I’m not sure what your source is Maildad, but Rick Warren from my understanding is a Republican…
December 27th, 2008 at 11:26 amJohn and Alvetta Moore were a class act if ever there was one. I miss her wit and common sense. John courageously works to keep her memory and legend alive.
December 27th, 2008 at 12:38 pmRev Wright retired!
If you consider Wright to be a racist, then yeah, that’s a fair comparison
December 27th, 2008 at 3:39 pmIf you ever listened to WPOS and heard pastor Don Cole answer questions on Monday and Thursday evenings – HE helped a lot of people in Africa by toiling on the mission field there for years prior to the socialist revolutions that kicked white missionaries out of Africa in the ’60’s. Never heard that. That’s because he was one of thousands of missionaries of all races who loved the praise of God more than the praise of men.
Scripture teaches that the world will hate true followers of Jesus. Not love and laud them – hate them. So take that unchangeable word of the Lord Jesus and apply it to both or either Billy Graham and Rick Warren, and to a number of other religious public figures as well. That’s how you tell whether or not they follow the Lord and his gospel faithfully.
December 27th, 2008 at 4:22 pmScripture teaches that the world will hate true followers of Jesus.
Oh, for crying out loud! When I hear those two words at the beginning of a sentence, I cringe. ‘Scripture teaches’ a lot of crap that was written by a wandering tribe of nomads thousands of years ago which has little or nothing to do with American governance. I wish these Fundamentalists would do their preaching inside of churches rather than attempting to twist American society into knots because ‘Scripture teaches…’
December 28th, 2008 at 10:05 am“ACTUAL evangelicals know scripture, which you plainly do not. Every abortion is a murder and has nothing to do with ‘reproductive life’.”
Could you please cite chapter and verse where the Bible states that “every abortion is murder?” While we’re at it, how about citing the chapter and verse stating that full human status begins at the moment of conception?
December 28th, 2008 at 11:00 amWhile I try to avoid “scripture battles” most times, I’d recommend visiting a variety of sites out there like this one, that list the scriptures that they state makes their position on abortion.
Based on the ten commandments, we already know that “Thou shall not kill” is not something we as a society follows anyway.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:07 amThat’s a good – no great site Lisa Rene provided. That explains what is right when it comes to life and abortion according to the Holy Scriptures.
However, people like “truthseeker” and other biased Conservatives like him that call themselves “Evangelicals” hold on to that ONE (abortion) – repeat ONE Biblical issue to consistently promote separatism and racial discord but claim it’s the right reason to vote Republican. And recently, they used that one scripture as the reason NOT to vote for Barack Obama. I say a reason not to vote for Obama instead of Democratic part because only in this election have “I” witness such a outcry from the church against a candidate. I mean pastors were actually telling their congregation to repent for voting for him. Actions like these are awfully peculiar considering the fact that one of our world’s most effective and loved Evangelists, Billy Graham has stated that he has typically voted Democrat (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8326362/). Has anyone of these pastors denounced Billy Graham?? Absolutely not (I won’t say that there’s racist undertones but I smell duck)!! They dare NOT. Billy Graham has reached many in this world with the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ not just one portion of the Bible. Politically, both Rick Warren and Barack Obama are doing the right thing – displaying unity while agreeing to disagree on a few issues and focus on healing a wounded country. That itself should be applauded by “Evangelicals.” I think the real ones actually are applauding it.
The scriptures promote unity in John 17:21 Jesus prays for believers calls for the Church to be unified. I think so called, “Evangelicals” are included. Yet, we have multiple denominations and a proliferation of “majority black” or “majority white” churches. Why aren’t Evangelicals actively pursuing this Biblical mandate? Hmmm??? Tell me, where’s the NATIONAL, public outcry against what happens on the most segregated day of year, Sunday??? Oh, they ignore that portion of the Bible and focus on the one area where they can be judgmental.
The issue that makes truthseeker’s (and others who hold on to the “only Christian Evangelicals vote Republican” position) unfair, misguided and incomplete is that Abortion or Murder is only one sin but would voting for McCain have been better from a spiritual perspective than Obama? Would God give you brownie points for that or would he still be concerned about your heart’s condition? Would that eliminate God’s judgment against all any other sins that one has committed. The Bible says, “All have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.” Is McCain a Bible toting, scripture abiding disciple of Christ? When the pharisees were condemning an adulteress, Jesus told them, “he who is without sin, cast the first stone.” Which sin is greater, murder, lying, coveting, fornication, adultery??? Does God give us a free will to CHOOSE good or evil? Is there still not restoration and forgiveness for all sinners if they ask God and repent regardless of the sin?
Get off it you so-called Evangelicals who claim the only Christian or should I say, “Evangelical” vote was for McCain or the Republican party. The Republican platform is NOT an equal alternative to or synonymous with the full Gospel of Jesus Christ. And keep in mind, those that have an abortion, those that lie, steal, have sex before marriage, covet, hold grudges against and YES even murder someone still have the opportunity for Christ’s forgiveness. The purpose of Evangelism is to reach people and plant the seed to change the hearts of men and women so that they make the right choices and have a desire to please God and therefore reduce or eliminate their natural urges to sin.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:40 pmYour comment appeared twice, RealTalk, the second one in blockquote format so I deleted the second one.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:02 pmRick Warren is a great example of reaching out to all. His Cedar creek affiliate church (see http://www.cedarcreek.tv) here in Toledo is always helping poor families here. Here in Toledo, they have rebuilt several homes for the poor. They took a big offering on Christmas for the local needy in Toledo. Warren has had the Clintons speak at his church ( not the Bushes). Lisa , I think he does not declare his voting preference. But his initiatives on global and local poverty issues, plus his friendship with Democrat pols tells me that he leans Dem, but more accurately he is non-partison .
December 28th, 2008 at 5:22 pmThanks Lisa:
I tried to go back and make a few grammatical corrections. I guess I didn’t do it the right way. Still, thanks for the note. LisaRenee wrote:
December 28th, 2008 at 6:13 pmReal Talk, there is a ten minute window to go back and fix a post, if you register a log in for the blog – you’ll see it under “Meta” then “Register” which if you do that, then you don’t have a time limit when it comes to editing a post. You can also always email me and I’d be happy to fix something if you miss it until later.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:29 pmTHIS IS THE EXCHANGE OF AN ADMINISTRATION, AND THE TRANSFER OF POWER…WHY IN THE HELL DO WE NEED ANY RELIGIOUS LEADER TO BLAB HIS BIG MOUTH. I WANT TO HEAR WHAT OUR NEW PRESIDENT HAS TO SAY. I COULD CARE LESS WHAT SOME BIG MOUTH RIGHT WING IDIOT HAS TO SAY, LIKE RICKY WARREN
December 29th, 2008 at 4:38 pmI’m thinking the phrase, “In God We Trust” on every-freaking-thing on Government Property just begs for a religious leader to accompany the President, Mike.
December 29th, 2008 at 6:39 pmI always have a hard time with the premise of abortion being made illegal because it’s murder when the reality is we allow murder in this country and by this country. I don’t personally support the idea of abortion for myself but we give the State and the Government the power to kill people, including at times innocents, so from a strictly governmental standpoint if we give the government the power of life or death, it stands to reason that women should have that same right. They are the ultimate governance when it comes to their body.
Now, if we were ever a nation that actually did follow “thou shall not kill” then it would be a different moral scenario. What we are as a nation is selective about who is allowed to “kill” and who is not allowed to kill while pretending that we actually follow the moral code of being against killing.
Abortion is murder, that is the cold reality of it, war is murder, the death penalty is murder, police officers killing unarmed people is murder, yet we selectively decide what is “punishable” versus what is justified.
Some focus on the fact that abortion involves the killing of the innocent, the unborn, yet we sit by as a citizenry and know that our country is responsible for the deaths of innocents, both by our governments hands and through the inaction of our government.
It’s similar to the arguments that happen about which part of a religious text to follow, we are selective when it comes to that as well, pointing out the “bad parts” of other religions and not focusing on the similar words expressed in our own…
While I do believe in God, I can’t help but think when I hear those like Rick Warren speak out about things like homosexuality; “So Mr. Warren, does this mean you don’t eat shrimp?”
December 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pmwell put lisa…you rule…i think when its ricky’s time to speak i will use the rest room
December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 ammichael l. friedman wrote:
YOU ARE THE IDIOT, FREIDMAN!
December 30th, 2008 at 8:46 amThere is nothing – repeat NOTHING – that brings em out of the wordwork like any discussion on spiritual matters (aka religion). All that the liberal “hate-them-Christian” types did here is prove the Lord’s pronouncement while on earth – i.e., that his followers will be hated because he was hated. If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny in a pathetic way. Most of you are so predictable, filled with the same absolute hatred and bias that you accuse Christians of. And the nasty words – wow sooooo predictable. Below is just one of many “au contraire” proofs that #18 RT is clueless on this topic. You should re-read your own hate-filled essay. It’s both sickening and stupid. Nomads? just for beginners to describe Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries, and his Jewish followers, who became the first Christians? How were they nomads? Good grief, I know 10 years olds who know more ancient history than you do. But, oh well, the original post was put here to get everybody arguing, yelling, and insulting, and it certainly achieved that.
http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/billygrahamcrusade.htm
December 30th, 2008 at 8:47 pmWHEN I STATE MY HATE TOWARDS NEO CONS…MR NOT AGAIN GETS ALL BENT OUT OF SHAPE…CONSERVATISM DIED ON NOVEMBER 4TH 2008, AND WILL BE LAID TO REST ON JAN 20TH 2009 AT 1201PM, WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA SAYS I DO GOD BLESS AMERICA AND GOD BLESS PRESIDENT OBAMA AND VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY…
December 30th, 2008 at 9:34 pmWhat a moron.
December 30th, 2008 at 9:51 pmNot Again, I’d prefer it if you’d state something like, “I think that is a moronic statement” as opposed to calling Michael or anyone a moron.
Or disagree with his statement, though I realize when someone makes a personal observation directed at someone (which Michael should also refrain from) it creates a response.
Conservatism did not die on November 4th, if you talk to many who state they are conservative, they disagreed with some of the positions taken by President Bush and President elect Obama has stated he is going to work with both Democrats and Republicans, he’s stressing the whole “disagree without being disagreeable” which is something I think we would all benefit from and is the goal here as it was since the creation of this blog.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:09 pmlisa, no problem, i will cool it with mr not again, he will not get under my skin,with a majority of 256 to 201 in the house and 58-42 in the senate obama will get his supreme court picks thru and he can pack the federal courts with liberals, the court is all i care about.legislate from the bench…i love it when it is done by us liberals…roe v wade is here to stay, now overturn prop 8 in california.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:40 pmThanks, many of you are going to disagree, I don’t expect everyone to hug and say “I love you” but we can disagree with each other without getting personal.
December 30th, 2008 at 10:42 pmlisa, i lived through alot of history, and liberal thinking ovrerules the neo con thinking of bush/chaney and paul wolfowitz i.e. the bush doctern….bush, hoover and nixon…all republicans an all neo cons…americas worst presidents
December 30th, 2008 at 11:12 pmmichael l. friedman wrote:
Lisa, I don’t think you get it. His HATE speech is what makes him a moron, not that he thinks the Republican party is dead. Freidman is full of hate.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:17 pmmr not again, i am full of life and love….i love to hate conservatives….my wife is worse than me. she is a member of now and is big in the green movement and she hates rush limbaugh…mr not again, i hAve 3 grandchildren, and i want them to grow up in a socialist society, where the government will take of them from cradle to grave, like denmark or canada
December 30th, 2008 at 11:32 pmlets spread the wealth…YOUR WEALTH MR NOT AGAIN
December 30th, 2008 at 11:34 pmI get it and I personally don’t use the word hate because I think it’s a strong word and our country as well as this blog is full of people from a variety of backgrounds and political ideologies.
I don’t think name calling and expressing hate for a large portion of our country gets us anywhere, it does the opposite but I can’t control how other people think or feel. All I can do is continue to ask from all of you that you try to refrain from turning posts into personal attacks. If you disagree with someone expressing what you feel is hate speech, acting in a similar manner makes you not very different from them…
Similar to the sentiment, “Let there be peace on Earth and let it begin with me.”
December 30th, 2008 at 11:43 pmI have never said I hated anyone. However, Freidman is a complete moron.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:47 pmI was speaking in more general terms, not you with the exception of making my suggestion as to your choice of usage of the word moron. As I go out there and I try to get community leaders and elected officials to want to provide material here to increase transparency and information, one of the main things expressed about blogs in general, including this one, is the personal attacks and the lack of constructive criticism.
Which is why I’m going to continue to stress to everyone, that we need to get beyond the name calling. I can’t very well get more people willing to take the step of reaching out to share their thoughts with us when we can’t have honest discussions. There have been some thought provoking points raised on this thread, I hope we can get back to discussing those.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:04 amwell…let me start by wishing mr not again a VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR. AND THE BEST TO HIM AND HIS FAMILY
December 31st, 2008 at 12:47 amtruthseeker:
I am not clueless. Please pull out your Bible and meditate on it day and night. Your focus on one tenet of a Political platform is doing you a disservice. I really think you’re an intelligent, kind-hearted, loving Christian but you’re just not able to show it because you’re still mad about a political election. Just pray for Obama like we needed to pray for Bush or would’ve had to pray for McCain and Palin.
Like your political platform, you pull out one issue in my response and try to address it. What’s your point with the Bynum link? “Hateful” and “stupid” – and were you talking about the “essay” I wrote?? How so? Please explain the Hate and the Stupidity. By the way, calling me or someone else stupid – that’s a perfect testament of your Christian Conservatism right? I guess so. You’ll win unbelievers to Christ every time with name calling. That must be “Conservative” protocol since on the campaign trail they shouted such vile and hurtful things about Obama. And no, Graham might not pleased Bynum but is he saved according to the Scriptures? Will he go to heaven? Has he been pleasing in God’s sight? Is E.L. Bynum the only trusted man of the faith? You probably have an answer to all of those questions but that my friend is most likely your problem.
You are completely hung up on one law and that helps you feel validated in your political position and justifies your apparent, lingering anger which if you know what the Word says about anger – will turn to sin. Get over it. I indeed am a follower of Christ and I do NOT support nor would I ever consider having an Abortion but does the way I vote validate or cancel my salvation? Do I go to hell if I vote Democrat? Tell me plainly my friend. Did God give us a FREE WILL to CHOOSE good or evil? So we can’t (IN SOME CASES) legislate CHOICE? Enough said. In the case of Abortion and legislation, it may or may not be the best thing to allow Americans to CHOOSE if they want to OBEY God’s Word concerning abortion but at the end of the day, if you never ever have an Abortion, are you sin free? Does God allow us to make CHOICES? Yes He does and we know evil choices lead to consequences – but God is so wonderful, there’s forgiveness – if we ask. How many great men of the faith in the Old and New Testament made bad decisions? Do they all go to your “Conservative” hell?
So my friend, you avoided, dodged and even called on help from E.L. Bynum. You have not adequately addressed my point at all. I’ve ignored the “nomad” comments and some of the other comments by others in this blog and I’m speaking directly to ONLY YOU – about your understanding of what our God’s Word really requires of us. Again, are only Republican Conservatives followers of Christ? That’s the question my friend. Did God say that “His followers would be hated because of their political party or because they followed Him?” You used the text – please explain and state clearly without avoiding the point. Again, are only Republican Conservatives followers of Christ?
What determines salvation, “Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing with your heart that God raised him from the dead” or voting Republican? Sounds like you’re stuck in the Old Testament and have forgotten about Grace (”Where sin increased-grace increased all the more”
. It’s apparent – you pulled that link to Bynum which talks about the problems of Catholicism. But since you did, would you be friends with someone and hang out with them if they were Catholic? From a political standpoint, would you have voted for McCain if he were Catholic? I bet you would have because I have that sinking feeling that the candidates’ faith wasn’t the real issue for you. More importantly, what again is McCain’s faith? Since of course he did state it so clearly and so proudly (I’m being facetious). I don’t think you have an answer. Based on your comments and position and hazardous use of the scriptures, you my friend must have avoided the polls and didn’t vote at all…or do you believe Sarah Palin’s belief covers McCain?
Based on yours and other conservatives explanation of why they didn’t vote for Obama, I would think they would have found enough or even more fault in McCain. Instead, they too changed their position and worked hard to find a reason to vote for McCain. Check out Dr. Dobson, who at one point said he wasn’t voting at all but then later said, okay he’ll vote for not-so-perfect candidate – the one he was most comfortable with. What about Bush’s recent comments that he doesn’t take the Bible literally? If you voted for him, would you now feel like a fool – let down or are you going justify it by saying, “What he really meant was…?” Have you asked for forgiveness for allowing yourself to be fooled by and for following someone who claimed they were so close to God? Hopefully, you have an explanation for that. If you do, in advance, a hearty, “Good for you, pal!”
By the way, Bynum completely uses Scripture out of context in one portion to fit his point. At that point, I didn’t have time to continue reading. For instance: (Another glaring error can be found in the idea that man may be searching for God. Man does not seek God, either here on earth or in hell. ” . . . There is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11.) .
Hey, truthseeker, if you really seek the TRUTH-get in ROMANS dude or dudette – study and pray on it. It’ll help you.
truthseeker wrote:
January 1st, 2009 at 9:20 pm