Back in Toledo…noise from smoking patios
29 Aug 2008
I wanted to attend yesterday’s hearing but with the family crisis that wasn’t possible. The Blade has a report on yesterday’s hearing and shares some of what was stated.
The proposed law would prohibit “unnecessary, excessive, or offensive” noise that disturbs the peace of neighbors after 9 p.m. The sound would have to be plainly audible 200 feet from the source. Violators could be fined between $250 and $500.
Last year I had the opportunity to meet with some residents of Toledo that were having major problems with excessive noise from an outdoor patio that seriously affected their quality of life, things changed after the smoking law went into affect.
Could that prohibit the Mud Hens from shooting off fireworks after their games? I’m a couple of miles away from the downtown and I can hear the fireworks. Heck, I-75 is about a quarter mile from my home and sometimes I can hear the traffic from the trucks and cars. Will the city stop the Hens and the trucks from making “too much noise?” The city is ever so close to rolling up the sidewalks at 6 p.m. in this town. We have alot of whiners in Toledo.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:42 pmI agree. What we really need in Toledo or the State of Ohio for that matter, is more legislation to drive businesses (thereby jobs and taxes) to other states.
People need to get over the idea that they can legislate utopia.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:11 pmCouncil should probably prohibit non liberals from speaking within ear shot of a socialist. That is the eventual goal anyway.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:24 pmLet’s look at the reality here for just a moment, it’s 11:00 p.m. at night, you are trying to go to bed to sleep to be able to get up and work at your job in the morning. Right down the street from you is a bar, the bar was there when you moved in but this was before the smoking patios and the worse thing you had to deal with was a few cig butts in your yard an occasional beer can…you could live with it.
Now however, loud music, screaming, and other noise from the patrons outside keeps you awake at night or when you can fall asleep, the screaming/yelling jars you awake in a startle. Even when you shut your bedroom windows you still hear it.
You’ve complained to the bar owner, you’ve called the police who most times don’t have a decible meter with them to be able to actually cite the bar and you are told there is nothing you can do, if you really don’t like it? Move.
That’s what we are talking about here, people who have been affected by a change in the law that created the smoking patios, that no one bothered to think about. In other areas of the country some type of soundproofing and/or distance requirements are in place, here? Nada. It’d be great if the bars in some of these neighborhoods cared enough about their neighbors, but some of them don’t. No one should have to live like that…
August 29th, 2008 at 11:05 pmThe bar owners shouldn’t have to make the folks go out and smoke. The socialist required it.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:49 pmAnd I don’t disagree with you, I’m not a fan of the smoking ban but that’s not going to change. When they passed the ban and created the smoking patios they did not stop to think how it was going to affect people in neighborhoods.
Why should they be punished for that? Rather than create a scenario where smoking patios are made illegal, it makes sense since some of these businesses are not being considerate of the area residents to have to strengthen the law.
I actually sat in these people’s homes and heard their stories, we are not taking about fireworks being blown off once in a while that end before midnight. We are talking about being kept up night after night, with children hearing vulgarity, seeing men pee on fences rather than having the decency to go inside. Typical drunken stupidness that prior to the smoking ban, still probably happened but it didn’t happen in their backyards…
August 29th, 2008 at 11:53 pmLisa you are absolutely correct. But now that we have this problem is there any chance common sense can win out? There are not words that can make a law that will fix the problem without causing even more.
I like music as much as the next guy. Is there a decibel level that will entice the patrons to stay and have a good time while allowing the neighbors some peace?
August 29th, 2008 at 11:54 pmBob, that’s why we are in the situation we are in now, the decibel thing didn’t work because police officers called out didn’t have equipment, which is why this is law is based on a more enforceable definition of audible sound 200 feet from the source.
It shouldn’t be necessary, it should be a simple matter of bar owners who own bars in residential neighborhoods need to be more courteous, in some neighborhoods the problems have resulted in the bar owners and their patrons purposely harassing some of the neighbors to retailate for complaints.
I’m not an advocate of additional laws, but in this scenario after I started talking to people I really don’t see another option. If something isn’t done, some of these neighborhoods will vote their district dry and these bars will be eventually out of business. A law that should be common sense but isn’t for some of these bars would be better than that.
August 30th, 2008 at 12:13 amgee, sounds like a big mess up there
Fortunately for me, Floridians used their heads and because of that, I can sit in an enclosed bar while the live music is playing and smoke like a chimney along side a bunch of other taxpaying smokers!
Then I can cross the compound to the restaurant and enjoy a non-smoking environment with my wonderful meal.
Then I can take my full ass back across the compound back to the bar for a drink and a smoke.
Outside smoking bars? In a winter-climate environment? brrrrrrr coldest I’ve ever felt it here in Florida is 26 degrees.
Outside smoking bars disturbing the neighbors? Only the one’s along the intracoastal that face residents on the other shore, but with all the smokers, you just face the speakers the other way because there are no outside patios for bars!
August 30th, 2008 at 6:48 amFight fire (or smoke) with fire. Homeowners within site of the patio should position and aim high candle power flood lights at the patio, and blare Lawrence Welk, or Tiny Bubbles to drown out the patrons.
But, unfortunately, I am willing to bet TPD would cite the homeowner!
TAHL
August 30th, 2008 at 8:12 ama one-a and a two-a
August 30th, 2008 at 8:56 amHey, I like Tiny Bubbles.
I quit smoking (cold turkey) 11/7/74…at 9:00pm. No gum..no patches..just lots and lots of hard candy.
Can someone name these loud patio locations? I don’t get out much.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:40 amLisa I see your point, but that’s why cities have zoning. If you move into a zone that permits those kinds of businesses – you can’t really complain.
West of Toledo there was a pig farm. True story. A developer bought land that abutted this farm. The developer built a housing development there and people began to move in.
They complained that the farm was emitting animal smells and raised enough hell that the farmer went out of business.
People today feel way too entitled. If you don’t want to hear noise late at night – don’t live near a bar. How complicated is this?
August 30th, 2008 at 3:32 pmWhat about the rights of citizens that are in a location twenty and
thirty years and then along comes a bar that builds a patio ?
A bar does not have the right to take over a residential neighborhood
with it’s late nite noise coming from a patio.
How complicated is that ?
August 31st, 2008 at 2:34 pmkateb,
August 31st, 2008 at 2:49 pmI am very glad that you stated the obvious. It seems very simple but let me complicate this a little. I am 43 years old and live in the home that I grew up in. I chose to stay to take care of a parent who was ill since I was a child. There has been a bar at the end of our street for all of my life. NOBODY on this street has ever had an issue with this bar until they put up an outside smoking patio. Now lets talk about zoning. This is zoned as a residential neighborhood. However the front of the bar in question faces a main street that is commercial. The patio however sits beside the bar and is actually adjoined to the home that sits next to it. How and why the City allowed a patio to be erected in this manner is beyond me, but it happened! The bar owner in his fore site purchased the home and I guess that is why the City gave the okay, however that does not eliminate the noise from disturbing the home next to that and so on. Now to clarify for you, I did not choose to live next to a smoking patio! The bar owner chose to put one up in a residential neighborhood! If you would like to give me your address I can park outside of your home 4 nights a week and scream, honk my horn and blast my radio, if you don’t like it you can move. I am sorry if that sounds “mean” but for people to suggest that I abandon the home that I have lived in all of my life to escape noise from a bunch of drunken college kids is absurd to me. The laws are already in place, I am not certain that we need new laws, however Law enforcement and City Government choose not to enforce them as written. You are right on one thing People do feel way too entitled. Entitled to disturb the peace and break our present laws without recourse. Entitled to do as they please without any regard or courtesy for others.
el Mahico,
You said what I intended to say, only much more efficiently. I was typing mine up as you posted yours.
The A-Hole,
You must be reading my mind! I have played that scenario in my head a hundred times but am afraid that I would either be arrested or suffer severe personal harm from dozens of drunken college kids. Excessive force used in self defense is illegal. I am better off staying on my porch.
Not again,
August 31st, 2008 at 3:07 pmI am a non smoker but think it ridiculous that we have taken so many rights away from those who do smoke. When I went to bars I never felt that smokers were a risk to my health, I assure you that the alcohol is a bigger threat. If I was bothered by the smokers I would not have went to bars. I could choose not to go. Now I am faced with noise pollution, I have no choice in that. I will not abandon my home without at least trying to make things better first. I do not care what goes on at these bars, just so long as it does not affect me and my family while we are on our own property.
Bobthedad
Music is not the problem that I suffer. Sometimes I wish that it were music. It might drown out the profanity and screaming. I know that many people living next to other bars are trying to eliminate the music but I am afraid that their problems would not go away they would just change. I would like to see reasonable hours of operation mandated for these patios. Unfortunately reasonable for me may not be reasonable for the bar owners. I would suggest shutting down the outside patios after a certain hour through weeknights and later on the weekends. Let the patrons smoke inside during these later hours. I don’t think that many children would be at these bars at these hours, and for those non smokers, well they could choose to go home at that time if the smoke is too much for them.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:21 pmJake, I really feel for the people that live near these places and have to put up with it. I am also sure most of the residents lived in their homes before the bars started building the patios and things changed, not like the folks that moved in next to the existing pig farm.
As for the screaming and profanity, we have some laws on the books for that already but enforcing them is another story – just like the proposed new law.
They simply can’t make a one-size-fits-all law that will satisfy everyone because all of the buildings are different and attract different crowds. Any new law is bound to be too restrictive for some and not enough for others. I’m sure the smoking ban played a role in this but there also must be some bar owners simply did what smart businesspeople do – they recognized an opportunity to attract more business, smoking or non-smoking.
It just makes sense to me from a business point of view to cooperate and make every effort to keep the residents as happy as possible because having the police shut you down or having council pass new laws to restrict your operation is not good for your business. The bars could also be proactive in communicating to their patrons that we want you to have a good time, but please respect the neighbors and don’t blow it for everyone. My high school class holds an informal annual reunion at the Players Club, and for the most part we hang out on the patio and talk. If they were to pass a law requiring the owner to close the patio at a certain hour, my guess is most of us would just go home rather than be cramped inside, which would not be fair to the owner who made the investment in the patio and is doing things the right way by not disturbing anyone.
It seems to me some bars have had their liquor licenses revoked over excessive complaints not necessarily related to liquor violations. Is that a possibility?
If talking doesn’t work, there’s always Don Ho.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:22 pmIt’s a long and frustrating process to have a bar’s liquor license revoked and this law is not intended to shut the patio’s down, only to give neighbors the ability to call the police and have the police actually be able to cite the bars rather than be told there is nothing that can be done.
In other parts of Ohio bars have to have a permit to even have the smoking patios, and some have been denied due to close proximity to residential areas if they have not evidenced some type of noise abatement barrier.
I would suggest however, that I’ve had better luck with Slim Whitman. He always works when I’ve had to deal with neighbors that don’t want to turn down the sound after they’ve been asked nicely a few times.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:31 pm“Sleep deprivation, urine odor inhalation, and high decible noise reception ARE A PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD.” Repeal the smoking ban, FOR THE CHILDREN! FOR THE ELDERLY! FOR THE POOR, who – because of housing inequality – have no choice but to live in mixed use neighborhoods and suffer while rich people live in the burbs where the bars serve Zinfandel and play orchestra music (but only till 8:30 pm).
TAHL
August 31st, 2008 at 7:33 pmWow TAHL, you need to run for office, that brought tears to my eyes….
August 31st, 2008 at 7:34 pmJakeMaxwell, I feel your pain. I have lived beside loud businesses and once about 15 feet away from a very busy train track.
You say the bar has always been there but not been a problem. The only change I know of is the smoking ban which pushed these partiers outside.
So under that circumstance I would not say if you don’t like it get out – there has been a change.
I’d be in touch with the folks who put up the smoking ban and find out how they’re going to provide for the police patrols that are now necessary. I’d also file a written complaint at the Police Dept.
Every day. Yes I would….and eventually somebody would get enough of it and talk to the bar owner.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:37 pmThanks everybody!
I really expected to be put on the offensive on this one. Sometimes it just feels good to vent and I appreciate that most of you can at least empathize with me “us”. The fact of the matter is that if I choose to stay here I will most likely have to learn to live with it and if that is the case… so be it. As in many other situations, I don’t believe that there is a solution that will make everybody HAPPY. Hopefully one can be found that will make some of us just a little less miserable.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:30 pmJake:
If, as a result of the smoking ban creating outdoor patios, your property values have reduced to a level making your home impossible to sell, or use as it was intended, you may have a claim that the Smoking ban is a government taking of your property without just compensation.
Realize, this is a LONG SHOT legal claim in every case. But, you may be able to find a lawyer working with the groups trying to repeal the smoking ban to take the case and bring the claim for free. I wish I had a referral for you, but the websites for the anti-smoking ban folks should have someone who could refer you.
TAHL
September 1st, 2008 at 7:59 amJake?
I sympathize with you.
If you have any obviously short-sighted nanny friends whom contributed to this debacle, I suggest a swift kick to the shin.
For it was those whom screwed you over.
Stu Kerr’s name comes to mind
The bar was fine before the nannies hijacked private enterprise.
September 1st, 2008 at 8:45 am