The Mayor, SB 260 and it seems like it’s about Rick Jones…
The Mayor is going to join Baldemar Velasquez, President of the Farm Labor Organizing Committee at 5:00 p.m. today on the steps of the Student Union to oppose S.B. 260. It’s being stated the reason for the opposition is:
S.B. 260 would require the Lucas County Sheriff and the Toledo Police Department to provide direct aid to federal immigration officials in the enforcement of deportation laws and laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal immigrants. Not only is this a unfunded mandate from state government, but it could lead to increased targeting and profiling of Hispanics by local law enforcement. Mayor Finkbeiner will join local Hispanic leadership in opposition to this bill which has already passed the Ohio Senate and is pending before the Ohio House of Representatives.
I think it’s a bad bill for a variety of reasons, however, if you read the actual Fiscal Note & Local Impact Statement for this bill, it does not appear as if it is an unfunded mandate since it would require a further action on the part of local government, two specific parts:
According to an Ohio Attorney General Opinion (No. 2007-01
, Ohio law generally authorizes a county sheriff to preserve the public peace as it applies to the enforcement of criminal federal immigration laws, including receiving prisoners into custody, but has not been construed to apply to the enforcement of civil federal immigration laws. The bill gives the board of county commissioners authority to contract with the federal government for the county sheriff to receive into custody persons being detained for deportation or charged with a civil violation of federal immigration law.
And:
The bill permits a county sheriff to render assistance to federal immigration officials related to the investigation, apprehension, and detection of persons who violate civil provision of federal immigration law. Based on a conversation with the Buckeye State Sheriffs’ Association, it seems likely that county sheriffs generally would not expend their limited resources (time, moneys, and people) in rendering assistance to federal immigration officials in such matters on an ongoing basis, but might do so selectively subject to the circumstances present.
It’s fairly clear that this is being done because of situations like Rick Jones the sheriff of Butler County since he has complained that there are not federal resources when he has wanted to target illegal immigrants and it should come as no shocker that the Ohio Senator who is listed as the sponsor? Sen. Cates a Republican from…Butler County.
It seems unlikely that our Lucas County Commissioners or our Sheriff would given the financial impact statement decide to change their current policies should this bill pass. Should a bill like this pass when it seems designed to allow one sheriff to continue on his “mission”? That’s a whole separate issue and it appears as if not one Ohio Senate member present voted no – here are those who voted from the Journal of May 16th, page 14 yes:
Amstutz Austria Boccieri Buehrer
Cafaro Carey Cates Coughlin
Faber Fedor Goodman Grendell
Jacobson Kearney Miller D Miller R
Morano Mumper Niehaus Padgett
Roberts Sawyer Schaffer Schuring
Seitz Smith Spada Stivers
Wagoner Wilson Harris-31
Some feel that Rick Jones is a hero, some feel differently. While the link to the LaPrensa story mentioned is no longer active, that I blogged about in 2006 the pdf version page 8 is online.
According to this blog, Right Wing Watch Jones has other ideas that he’d like to see legislators do:
“Let’s create stricter state laws to go after employers who hire persons who are in this state illegally,” he (Jones) said. “Also, let’s make English the official language of the state. Those who live in Ohio should know our language. Taxpayers should not have to pay for interpreters in schools, and U.S. citizens living here shouldn’t have to learn another language.” …
“If we would make it a crime to be in Ohio illegally and local law enforcement could charge offenders with that as a state criminal offense, then we probably could get the federal government to deport those offenders,” Sheriff Jones said. “Now is the time for Ohio to show the rest of the country how to deal with immigration problems.”
Jones has also ran billboards and is a blogger…
An hispanic grandfather who had been in the US for many years, from my parents’ church, was deported in the past year or so. It is heartbreaking and unnecessary. There are other ethnic groups (Chinese & others) also being targeted. It appears to be random, and some kind of effort to show that elected officials are “doing something” about illegal immigration.
Efforts should be made to control our borders at the border. There are so many angles to this discussion, I don’t think it could possibly be covered on a mesasge board. Once when taking a Spanish brush-up course in the early 90’s I mentioned to our teacher that we had some former eastern-block relatives who would also like to immigrate to the U.S. (the teacher had started the discussion on this with our small class). She halted the discussion immediately – her only interest was in hispanic immigrants, not those from desperately poor eastern european countries or anywhere else.
I think that is the point where people get angry and defensive . Our immigration laws have to apply to everyone or no-one. And again, the enforcement should start right at the borders. This sending people “home” with no notice after they have been here for years and have no home in another country is cruel and stupid. But all angles of this should be on the table for discussion, and I don’t think that will ever happen.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:58 pmyes, it does seem cruel to send someone back to their country where they dont have a home. BUT DIDNT “THEY” COME HERE WITHOUT A HOME? if anyone wants to become a citizen the rules are made clear on how to do so and that doesnt stop people from doing it the right way every year. there are people in this country who have served our country and cant even find work now that they have returned from the military. how many people would like to work in this country but cannot and they are citizens here. we have to start looking out for our own. this shouldnt even be an issue if your here and you shouldnt be your going back the end!
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:23 pm“An hispanic grandfather who had been in the US for many years, from my parents’ church, was deported in the past year or so. It is heartbreaking and unnecessary. There are other ethnic groups (Chinese & others) also being targeted. It appears to be random, and some kind of effort to show that elected officials are “doing something” about illegal immigration.”
Yes it is sad to see folks displaced. I believe though that it shouldn’t be random apprehension. Illegals should be deported whenever they are found. And yes, the borders need to be protected, and the imigration laws of this country need to be enforced. Illegal means illegal, doesn’t it?
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 pm“S.B. 260 would require the Lucas County Sheriff and the Toledo Police Department to provide direct aid to federal immigration officials in the enforcement of deportation laws and laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal immigrants. Not only is this a unfunded mandate from state government, but it could lead to increased targeting and profiling of Hispanics by local law enforcement.”
What complaint would a reasonable person have with this bill. To me it is a no brainer. The laws of this country should be followed by ALL law enforcement personnel. The bill should not be needed however. Any law enforcement agency, when encountering illegal aliens, should be obligated, because it is the right thing to do, to hold said illegals for deportation.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:43 pmIf you read the actual bill and not what was stated by the Mayor’s office what this bill does, you’ll see what the issue is. County law enforcement that has arrested people for being illegal are not reimbursed by the federal government and as we’ve seen with Rick Jones, most times end up being released since the Feds do not deport them…
Right now our county jail is so crowded that they release people, over and over again – so you want to have illegals there instead of real criminals and those who don’t show up to court because they know there is no jail room?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:49 amI read the bill, I agree with you on this one.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:04 amAs do I agree, for this is a federal issue. Local enforcement agencies should not be charged with the duty to uphold federal law without just compensation. The feds have a lot more money than the state or the locals (just look at your W-2 and see what you are truly paying). The state and the locals should only respond to a violation of their own laws. If they are to enforce federal law, they ought to be justly compensated.
That said, illegal immigration is a small issue in the state of Ohio. It has long been the policy that there is no official language in the state of Ohio or the US. So one must ask, why is this one state legislator asking for this kind of change? Simple answer, he doesn’t understand history.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:01 amThey’re having problems funding this because immigrants that come here illegally are not following the application process.
I can assure you, based on personal experience, that it is as expensive to get a “Green Card” as it is to become a “Lawful Permanent Resident”. There are fees that illegals are not paying, processes that are not being paid, paperwork that is not being paid.
Multiply that by 12 million illegal immigrants and what do you get?
It’s just as much money to pay for an application as it is to be transported here illegally from Mexico. My wife and I completed this application process for just under $5,000, with all the optical scans, fingerprints, pictures and filling out paperwork and interviews. All without an immigration lawyer.
Took all of 2 years.
It’s the time factor that promotes this illegal immigration.
IMHO.
you can’t understand history unless you can understand the language…
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:05 amI re-read my post, and guess it wasn’t very clear as I tried to briefly cover too many aspects of the immigration issue (which by the way was a big issue at the turn of the last century, early 1900’s… so we haven’t been able to solve the problem in over 100 years apparently). I admit to being slightly torn on the issue – but only regarding immigrants of any nationality who have been here for routhly a decade or more. Notice I said I’m torn, meaning among other things, undecided. I don’t expect anyone else to agree with me on that, but that’s how the issue resonates with me.
The point I was trying to make about the teacher mentioned above, was that, as an hispanic, she stated her views that basically everyone who wanted to come here from Mexico specifically (she wasn’t too interested in other latin american countries) should be allowed to because that country is so poor. Her entire argument was based on the poverty in Mexico (which is largely due to corrupt government after corrupt government down there). That was my first encounter with what I considered a ridiculous and somewhat belligerent attitude. I had not yet heard of groups like La Raza, nor seen parades like those in California where protest marches are held flying the Mexican flag.
At a luncheon recently where 3 out of 4 of us basically took the position of poster #2 above, the 4th person, a social worker from Arizona, got up from the table and said “I can’t have this conversation, I’ve seen too much.” (meaning too much poverty of illegals). By their actions, this administration sent the message to everybody south of the border that our borders would not ever be effectively patrolled or defended. That’s why American loudly opposed his new amnesty bill he tried to push through congress and failed. So, having not expressed this plainly above – my overall opinion is that if the federal govt is not going to secure the borders or fix illegal immigration problems like arabs overstaying their visas… then, yes, it is logical for local law enforcement to ignore unfunded mandates, since, again, yes, this is a federal problem, and the feds are talking out of both sides of their mouth on this one, and expecting local officials to do something locally that they (feds) will not do nationally.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 amI agree that it is difficult to see anyone displaced from their home. I likewise agree that this is not an issue restricted to Mexico, or even to the Hispanic community. Like a number of commenters, I also agree that this is becoming a serious issue for local law enforcement and their jails. There is one point that I have not seen brought up in any of this however. When is it OK to pick and choose the laws that we will enforce? Who gets to decide which laws fall on which side of the line? We are a people guided by the “rule of law”. Unless there is a statute of limitation issue here, I can’t see that when the violation of immigration law occurred never gets to enter the discussion.
Immigration policy needs to change, and building a wall isin’t going to get the job done. Neither is handing out blanket pardons for violators of immigration law.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:57 pmOn blanket pardons, I also am completely against. That’s the reason the “amnesty” bill failed. No matter how they dressed it up and tried to ram it through before the American public took notice, the public outcry killed it. Blanket pardons only encourage a huge increase exponentially in illegal activity, overwhelming the understaffed border patrol.
My grandfather on one side and all great grandparents were immigrants near the turn of the last century. They came with nothing and worked their fingers to the bone with no social programs to help, and learned English asap. Frequently they started out in Canada because of stricter immigration restrictions & lack of job possibilities in the U.S. even back then. And they all entered the U.S. legally.
And who gets to decide? The reality is whoever is in power at whatever level from local to national. For example do not drive in the Detroit area, particularly Taylor or Dearborn without your seat belt on. You will get a ticket. Down here – not so much (except in Northwood).
And there is another aspect to “picking and choosing”. There’s been a lot of talk about “martial law” since 911. Let’s say some catastrophe happens again (like a lot of high level neocons appear to be hoping it will)and the powers that be at the time decided to declare martial law, and all the interstates were shut down. (There are in existence detailed plans for such an eventuality.) Let’s say, just for argument’s sake, that large city populations are trapped in place for several months. And let’s say, part of the catastrophe meant that food and water were scarce. Do you think that people who have relatives and/or property “up north” or maybe down south or out west (with wells and land to grow food on) would choose to stay here, or would they do and go exactly where they wanted to by whatever means they could find??
Here’s how I think people react to unjust laws or actions of corrupt officials. They begin to ignore those they deem crazy or corrupt or even just questionable. That’s basically what “jury nullification” is. That’s the first phrase that jumped to mind when I heard how local officials were reacting to SB 260. As a matter of fact, this president’s “signing statements” indicating he wouldn’t necessarily follow the law he was signing at the time – it is constantly argued, and I agree, that he has no legal right to do that. But he does it all the time. See, they are not obeying laws at the higher echelons of government.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:52 pmMy main problem with what you just wrote is the requirements to enter this country have changed since the time period when my mother’s side of the family came here and probably when your relatives came from over seas or Canada. I’d also point out that most illegals that come here don’t receive social services paid for by tax payer dollars nor were any of the social programs in existance today in existance then, so it’s kind of a moot point. Then of course those that come here illegally do contribute to the economy – they spend what they make and those that are earning wages lower than what non-illegals will work for do create lower prices on many products than what we as consumers would be forced to pay should illegal immigration end. That’s the real reason I believe why illegal immigration has not been eliminated, it’s considered as a “necessary evil” in the economic chain. If amnesty happened and they were legal citizens? It’s doubtful they’d work for the same wages they would accept as illegals…
During that time period groups took care of their own which created more situations where former immigrants looked out for those first arriving, which happens at some levels today but not like what it was like during the days before immigration laws were severely changed.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm[...] Committee at 5:00 p.m. today on the steps of the Student Union to oppose S.B. 260. It??s being statehttp://glasscityjungle.com/wordpress/?p=3133Inquiry into immigration department StuffThe government has just launched a fresh inquiry into the [...]
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 pmWell, to begin with, I find a little bit interesting that only my posts on this topic, where I’ve tried to be balanced and look at all sides, invite your criticism, while for harsher posts on this topic, you remained silent.
The social services is not a moot point for two reasons. These immigrants at the turn of the century came knowing there were no government provisions for them of any kind, and knowing that in many cases they were not particularly welcome, and when they got here, blended in quietly as best they could with few resources. Secondly, My sister is a nurse at a large pediatric clinic in a southern state where there has been a huge influx of illegals specifically from Mexico, and reports that social services are used pretty heavily in that state by these immigrants, and she witnesses a lot of this at her clinic. Other relatives in that state have given examples of jobs lost by American citizens that they have witnessed.
I assumed in advance that this would be another VERY sensitive and hot topic for you personally. But you really didn’t indicate that at the outset in your original post. It would maybe have been helpful for you to state your position flat out in the beginning. Of course then, almost nobody would have posted for fear of offending you. As to the argument, which is not accepted by the majority of the American public, that illegal immigrants with jobs contribute to the economy – yes they do. But so would others from overseas waiting for years in the LEGAL line for the chance to become citizens.
The point about the law being the law – no other arguments needed – was made by other posters here on this topic, with no response from you. I tried to soften that a little in my posts, so again, I find it a little strange that my post is the one you go after. So if your main argument, that you feel holds water, is that illegals contribute to the economy, then I’m going to have revise my “soft” approach, and say, OK if only hispanic immigrants count, and if the Mexican flag is going to be flown in protest marches in U.S. soil – then the law is the law. There are would-be immigrants from many countries desperate to come here, and they would contribute to the economy as well. Fair as fair, and proximity to our border does not give one country the right to massively violate our laws.
May 24th, 2008 at 11:08 amI wasn’t trying to critique, I was trying to discuss where we differed, because I found what you were posting was interesting and I was curious as to what your response would be.
You typically provide quite a bit of information, and I have enjoyed as well as learned from some of our previous discussions, so I’m sorry you took it as I was singling you out as a negative.
May 24th, 2008 at 2:28 pmSorry, then that’s my thin skin-edness showing.
May 24th, 2008 at 2:53 pmThis shouldn’t be posted here, and you should probably take it down, but read it first, it’s about oil prices & a threat by a congresswoman to nationalize the oil industry… cheered me up for this entire $4.00 per gallon weekend. I’ve been waiting for somebody in the oil soaked, spy riddled congress to say something like this…
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65111
May 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pmLets look at the terrorist situation about a year or two ago. Maybe that is why an illegal immigrant would come here. Plus Toledo is scarce on jobs do we want Toledoians having those jobs or some guy who isn’t even American getting those jobs?
http://conservativevoiceofreason.blogspot.com
May 24th, 2008 at 9:13 pm